So you’ve relaxed your rules on linking to websites that provide names (see first link)?

The BNP are a bunch of shits but this site’s attitude really marks it out as a member of the “I believe in privacy but…” sector of faux-liberalism.

As, I say below, thay are coming up with the Pete Townsend defence….

“I was only doing research.”

“The BNP are a bunch of shits ……but …………”

Ah, there is always a but with the trolls.

The Right has always been for name and shame. So stop whining troll.

But ooooh look, greenshirt/brownshirt convergence: http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/11/19/statement-from-the-green-party-in-reply-to-keith-bessant-article/

“The Right has always been for name and shame.”

Good thing I am not Rightwing, just libertarian then:)

But then I should try to stick to my own principles and not link to other interesting tit-bits, as above. My apologies.

Not to blow my own trumpet, but: http://www.septicisle.info/2008/11/lets-not-have-horrible-double-standards.html

That said, the LOLGriffins are hilarious. Worth remembering that these are our candidates for the master race.

Ooooh, I was actually wondering how long it would take for you to try and make that comparison. Well done Nick, only a few hours out.
Except that… much of the right has a much closer link with fascists, socially. Nice try pal, its always nice to have people behave so predictably.

Nick - I’m not linking directly to names. If people want to search, that’s up to them isn’t it.

To address your point septicisle - I’m very partisan, and have always been open about that fact. I have no sympathy for fascists. If others want to maintain their principles that’s fine. I’m staying this side of the law but that’s about it.

Well the first link is almost as direct as could be without sticking the names up on here. I don’t know how attacks on this thread against the “Right” or aspects of the right are meant to constitute a response.

By many definitions, I’m not of the right but if you do want to put me on that hemisphere relatively arbitrarily, I would certainly be on the spectrum that is furthest from fascists. I don’t have any (well certainly not any known) fascists amongst my friends or in my wider social circle who are far more likely to identify as libertarian, socialist, left anarchist or left liberal (why do you think I comment on here so much!). So I don’t see how a “well, you too!” argument applies to me.

I would certainly be on the spectrum that is furthest from fascists

I dunno Nick, I’m sure Greenies would say the same but you seem to intent on grouping them with fascists. So, if you’re willing to dish it out…

Well you could certainly say but it wouldn’t make that much sense at all to group me with fascists. I have a strong commitment to non-coercion and a belief that the initiation of violence is always wrong. That does not offer very much for a skinhead to work with if they are looking for an ideology.

Those are not core principles for the Greens who have other stronger commitments (to the environment, to local communities, to equality, to material security, to a notional future). Some of their concerns converge on what fascists believe. Those commitments will, on some level and at some point, justify initiating violence against others who do not agree with them. That is not to say they are all that different from other political parties. All parties believe in using the state to enforce their beliefs on others. Only the Greens have a somewhat bigger and more radical project in mind which will eventually justify an awful lot of violence.

So… in other words you don’t many Green party members then, but you don’t mind a bit of smearing from far away. No surprise then that you get the same hurled at you.

The rhetorical tricks you employ, somehow saying greens are ‘jutifying a lot of violence’ is too absurd to even dignify. Nice try though, and to be honest I’m now bored going over the same topic with you for the upteenth time.

It will indeed be interesting to see how the Green party respond to the accusation that they are naive incoherent amateurs, but my suspicion is that they don’t have the mechanisms to do so adequately or sufficiently.

It honestly, isn’t rhetoric Sunny. Just a very radical (for this place) but coherent position. The philosophy of liberty: http://www.isil.org/resources/introduction.swf

Phew! None nearer to me than one-third mile. In a densely populated area, that’s a relief.

[...] has a semi-interactive heat map. I’m sure there are more these are just the ones Sunny Hundal at Liberal Conspiracy has [...]

I think Nick’s being a tad harsh here. As a fairly MOR left winger myself, I’d think nothing of having all libertarians rounded up, beaten with cricket bats and thrown into the Tower of London* in perpetuity while the rest of us gather round their widescreen TVs and tuck into the contents of their fridges.

However, as a reasonably liberal character , I’m also open to the idea of allowing judicial review for this process every few years or so, although we’d keep the TVs, thanks.

Oh, and that BNP list thing? It’s a bad precedent and horrible politics for the rejects in the party to publish names, but let’s be honest - if it had to happen to someone, better them than decent people, eh?

*You’d be able to fit every “libertarian” in Britain into that building too, no doubt. I used to think the the term meant Boo hoo, being forced to pay for the roads I drive on is totalitarianism at its worst, and you’ll have to pry the keys to my Lexus from my cold, dead hands, hippies. Now I’m swinging round to the view that the word means Angry Randroids who genuinely believe that their fantastical, utopian belief system is a) realistic; b) feasible; c) of interest to sane people and d) not actually warmed-over Thatcherism with lashings of tedious self-pity and priapic self-righteousness.

Perhaps I’m being rather po-faced, but I think the attitude displayed by this article is pretty disgusting.

I feel a bit uncomfortable at the spectacle of a McCarthy-ite witch hunt of BNP members .Many Labour voters sympathise with some their concerns and . Are all these people moral lepers ? The New Statesman carried several articles discussing this problem which , for the left is this . Can they afford to sever links with all working class nationalism and social conservatism? Brown has been conspicuous in his efforts to appeal to this constituency .30 % of Labour voters say the BNP are their second Party .
Today we learn that immigration has quintupled under labour , the population is racing towards 70 mio Revelations that illegal immigration is far greater than has been admitted have also been in the Press this week.
The control of immigration that has been repeatedly promised and not delivered ( largely because of incompetence) by Labour , can only increase resentment by those who feel they pay the price for bourgeois internationalism and the rabid anti Nationalism

PS
There was an interesting discussion of the links between Green and fascists here .

http://www.samizdata.net/blog/archives/2008/02/vote_green_go_b.html

A pathetic article.

No doubt if a party of a liberal persuasion had a former member release all the electoral details of their entire membership, you’d be up in arms at the data intrusion on the grounds of civil liberties. But, as with so many other people and our beloved Labour government, you apply different rules to the BNP than you do to everyone else.

Seeing as you clearly don’t give a toss about civil liberties and data protection, I would be most grateful if all the Liberal Conspiracy authors would post their names, addresses, phone numbers and personal email accounts online for us all to see. Please put them in a brand new post on the main section of your site and email me once this is done so I can publicise your personal details on my blog, and send the info to Guido while you’re at it.

http://www.lettersfromatory.com

Careful UKLiberty, I made a similar point yesterday and I got two lectures on trolling.

LFAT,
you are generalising - never a sensible thing to do.

I agree that some of us appear more interested in fighting our opponents than promoting our own interests, but that doesn’t go for all of us.

It seems that this shows there are some cracks in this left-liberal coalition over the strategy for achieving our preferred ends - do the means justify the ends, do the means determine the ends or are the means an end in themselves?

Alright, fair point. Not all Liberal Conspiracy authors might agree with Sunny, so please encourage Sunny to post all of his personal details online (name, address, email and phone number), email them to me as well and let any other LC authors who feel that this BNP data protection breach is ever so amusing to do the same.

Much obliged.

http://www.lettersfromatory.com

Sorry to rain on the aggrieved Libertarian parade, but trying to arouse sympathy for admirers of Hitler is really a non-starter.

“First they came for the Nazis…” is never going to catch on as a slogan.

“You’d be able to fit every “libertarian” in Britain into that building too, no doubt. I used to think the the term meant Boo hoo, being forced to pay for the roads I drive on is totalitarianism at its worst, and you’ll have to pry the keys to my Lexus from my cold, dead hands, hippies. Now I’m swinging round to the view that the word means Angry Randroids who genuinely believe that their fantastical, utopian belief system is a) realistic; b) feasible; c) of interest to sane people and d) not actually warmed-over Thatcherism with lashings of tedious self-pity and priapic self-righteousness.”

Ha! Spot on!

Libertarianism is what you get when you crossbreed anarchism with good old-fashioned selfishness.

[...] Sunny over at Liberal Conspiracy finds the BNP membership list story hilarious, to the point where he is actively encouraging people to trawl the list via links on his post.  I have just sent him the following email [...]

[troll]
Non need to snoop around for Sunny`s personal details

Adresss- Mums house
Occupation- Would be a good idea
Age - Time he was married to nice Indian girl
Orientation- Bi –curious
Weight - 14 stone
Height - 5ft 4 ½
Distinguishing
features - Silly Beard
Lirerary output
2005 - “ How great am I (The Sunny story so far )”
2006 - “ Just Sunny “( Award winning cover posed with head in palms , black and white )
2007 - “ Blood and loathing ( a ferocious attack on the legacy of Imperialism and one man`s crusade against its insidious evil)
2008 - ‘What Sunny did Next’

Ok, from the top. It was wrong that this data is out their in the open. It shouldnt have been leaked and that it has been so is deplorable (though ironic given the BNP’s behaviour towards leftists). Now, having said that the data is actually out their now so what do we do?? I bet the vast majority of people reading this have seen the list as have all the editors of the major newspapers.

This is one of the pradoxes of the internet and how quick it is to spread such information. Maybe the first link is tilting too far towards revealing the data. I think it’s understandable on both sides why people dont find the leak particularly funny especially as there are children involved; id prefer to go with saying it’s ironic which it is. I think at a push the first link is tilting too far. However, I thought there was a good article in the Guardian saying BNP members should now speak up and it does present an opportunity to engage them in debate.

[...] in Sunny at LC and most of the comments there, where it seems there is a general attitude of privacy for some but [...]

Newmania - you’re HILARIOUS!

Nights out with you must be WELL MENTAL!

You should be on the telly!

@23:
“First they came for the Nazis…” is never going to catch on as a slogan.

Why the hell not? Freedom means freedom for people we disagree with. This isn’t any different from the laws to combat terrorism that get expanded to affect us all. McCarthy wouldn’t have got far without the nazi-hunting HUAC apparatus to begin with.

I agree, carrying a crusade against fascists and racists is soooo last century. Let’s embrace Nick Griffin and all is forgotten.

Fuck off.

Flying Rodent - couldn’t have put it better myself.

Because, Dan, fascists have a nasty habit of killing everyone who disagrees with them as soon as they get an opportunity.

Also, the original quote I so wittily paraphrased kind of refers to the fact that Nazis were unable to extend such liberal niceties to the people that they disagreed with, unto killing them all.

If all the nice “well Tarquin they have a perfect right to…” liberals had wised up to this in 1930s Germany, an awful lot of them may still be alive.

“Freedom means freedom for people we disagree with.”

I quite agree. Except fascists.

Can’t state that clearly enough: Freedom and Tolerance for ALL.

Except fascists.

Feel free to disagree, I will respect YOUR right to do so. Because you’re not a fascist.

Sunny: it all depends what you mean by a crusade. If you want to defeat their ideas, beat them in elections, then great. But invading their privacy, personally intimidating them, forcing them out of their jobs? That shouldn’t happen to anybody because of their political views, no matter how offensive and unpopular.

16 Flying Rodent: “Oh, and that BNP list thing? It’s a bad precedent and horrible politics for the rejects in the party to publish names, but let’s be honest - if it had to happen to someone, better them than decent people, eh?”

Sunny, presumably the same logic applies to 42 day detention, which you and LC supported so vigorously. “It’s a bad precedent to lock people up without charge, but let’s be honest - if it had to happen to someone, better Muslims even though we’ve got no evidence against them than decent people, eh?” If somebody expressed this view, you’d be up in arms and berating them on this site for their biased and hate-filled views, yet here you are doing exactly the same thing - making exceptions to suit your own personal prejudices. The same goes for Flying Rodent.

And we’re all still waiting for you to publish your own personal details on this site - get a move on.

But invading their privacy, personally intimidating them, forcing them out of their jobs?

If organisations want to have rules against employing fascists and/or racists, that’s up to them. I don’t have anything against it.

LFaT: *yawn* Feeling rather stupid are we today? Firstly, this is not a witch-hunt. Am I asking anyone to beat people up in their local area? Have I linked specificially to any names? Am I carrying out a personal witch-hunt? Have I asked for anyone to be locked up?
Please take your sanctomonious bullshit elsewhere. The comparison to 42 days is even more funny. These people are not locked up.

“If all the nice “well Tarquin they have a perfect right to…” liberals had wised up to this in 1930s Germany, an awful lot of them may still be alive.”

Bollocks - the Nazi rise to power was driven by fear of extreme-left groups combined with the belief of moderate right-wing parties that they could use Hitler as a puppet. The fact that liberals didn’t go around murdering/jailing Nazi supporters had absolutely sod-all to do with it (and indeed, the communists *did* go around beating up and occasionally murdering Nazi supporters).

FWIW, my email address, home address and phone number are readily available on the web.

Col. Richard: if BNP members kill people, they can be punished for that, same as everybody else. Until they do, they should have the same rights as the rest of us.

[as for the poem: Niemoller includes the communists, who (in '30s Germany) certainly weren't averse to political violence]

LFAT says: “The more you try to crush the BNP, the stronger they become” - on his blog.

Let’s embrace them right? That’s the only way. What’s wrong with fascists anyway?

No, you don’t embrace them, you take them on in political debate. Trying to kick them out of school classrooms and hospitals will fuel resentment and anger towards the state. The BNP thrive on resentment and anger towards the state. Publishing details of BNP members on the internet will fuel resentment and anger at the way that the BNP are treated and give them even more ammunition to claim that they are persecuted by other parties. The more you try to crush them, the stronger they become.

I don’t care if its fascists, lefties or anyone else who is airing inappropriate or unacceptable views - you take them on and show their ignorance for what it is. If you try to silence them, their support base will grow and grow.

Still waiting for those personal details, Sunny.

Sunny,

I think that is a bit of an unfair characterisation of Letter’s view actually. I think he is pointing to the fact that the more we arbitarially crush them and martyr them the more they feed off that and I happen to agree with that point…

Just wondering it would be awful if someone compiled a list of all the emails on the list and say signed them all up to a load of black and asian news/ music sites. Maybe some anti-fascist mailing list. Or even worse a load of porn and spam sights. That would be terrible and possibly illegal. Shame on you for thinking about it.

While I have little, if any, sympathy for those who’s details have been published I do have a number of issues here.

1. Is it accurate? An article on the Independent wesbite includes details of those who have signed pertitions or been invited to but not attended BNP events ending up on the list. I would have serious concerns if we end up with a situation where people with o association with the BNP may be labled as Facists.

2. Will it result in more sypmathy for the BNP? What happens when an 80 year old war veteran is identified as a member and beaten up? Or a single mum loses her job? Can you imagin the political capital to be made out of this by the BNP then? Hopefully this wont be the case, the shambolic performance by Griffin in channel 4 news last night saw him fail to make any kind of headway with his cause, but it is still an issue to consider.

3. Finally if people start losing their jobs or suffering because of their beliefs then we find ourselves at the top of a very slippery slope. I don’t like the BNP, I loath everything they stand for, I find Nick Griffin a vile individual but unless the individuals start taking actions that are racist then to persecute them for their beliefs then I think we should keep our powder dry.

Incidentally there was some mention of libetarians above, has anyone else encountered an individual called Rory Meakin on the internet anywhere? He’s quite a chacater, total libetarian and someone who I have been crossing swords with on To Miss With Love.

Toodle pip.

Akela

Oh dear, so the Tory trolls are all upset because their friends the brown shirts are having their names and address’s put on the internet.

Funny, I don’t remember such restraint from the Tory press last week as they could not contain themselves from printing the names of social workers and encouraging a lynch mob mentality. Typical Right wing hypocrisy.

http://www.jimmysvalueworld.com/downloads.html would be a suitable site to use as it contains a free program for extracting emails from long text lists. This is simply one of many email extracting programs that would aid the unconscionable in compiling an email list for the BNP.

No, you don’t embrace them, you take them on in political debate.

You’re a genius LFAT! You should have been around when Winston Churchill was and given him that invaluable piece of advice.

Ever tried to engage BNP people in a civilised political debate? I have. Let me tell you, its not a pretty sight.
But its nice to see naivety on this site once in a while.

Darrel - it depends how you define ‘crush’.

Oh dear Sally (43), your stereotypes make you look absolutely ridiculous. I am not friends with the BNP, I don’t ever want to be friends with the BNP. Your assumption that everyone right-of-centre in British politics likes each other is laughably ill-informed and your assumption that every Conservative supports publishing the emails of social workers on the internet is also hilarious in its stupidity. I notice that you didn’t bother to address any of my points and just served up your own stereotypes and prejudices - a bit like Sunny’s post, really.

And Sunny, just because you can’t manage something doesn’t mean that someone else can’t. Judging by your attitude to the BNP displayed in this post and your comments, I can see why you couldn’t debate them - you don’t even understand why people support them and why they are getting stronger with every set of elections that passes.

http://www.lettersfromatory.com

I understand, though don’t agree with, the argument that as a matter of principle we should condemn the fact that this list has been leaked.

But Letters from a Tory et al appear to be making another point, which is that the BNP have been and will continue to be *strengthened* by the fact that their membership list has been leaked, because people will become angry about the way that they have been treated and support them as a result.

If this were true, then logically all other political parties (or, at least, those who ‘thrive on anger and resentment about the state’, e.g. the Tories) should arrange for their members’ details to be leaked, and they would then also become more popular?

What’s happened with the leaking of the membership list is quite clearly both a) a breach of liberal principles and b) damaging to the BNP. Whether this is overall a Good Thing or not depends on your assessment of the relative importance of each of these objectives. There’s nothing wrong with being conflicted when there seem to be practical benefits from something which goes against our principles. But it is at best sloppy thinking to try to rationalise this by pretending iether that there is no breach of principle or that there are no positive consequences.

Johnb, I know perfectly well what caused the Nazi rise to power, ta for pointing it out - my point was referring to what happened afterwards.

“and indeed, the communists *did* go around beating up and occasionally murdering Nazi supporters.”

I’m sorry. I don’t have a problem with that. I’m a revolutionary socialist, not a liberal. No offense.

Dan: “[as for the poem: Niemoller includes the communists, who (in '30s Germany) certainly weren't averse to political violence]”

See my previous comment.

Johnb, I know perfectly well what caused the Nazi rise to power, ta for pointing it out - my point was referring to what happened afterwards.

“and indeed, the communists *did* go around beating up and occasionally murdering Nazi supporters.”

I’m sorry. I don’t have a problem with that. I’m a revolutionary socialist, not a liberal. No offense.

Dan: “[as for the poem: Niemoller includes the communists, who (in '30s Germany) certainly weren't averse to political violence]”

See my previous comment.

“I notice that you didn’t bother to address any of my points ”

That’s because you have not made any points worth responding too. You are just trolling on a Liberal site to cause trouble.

But it is funny watching the Right wing closing ranks on this issue.

16 - Flying Rodent: “Oh, and that BNP list thing? It’s a bad precedent and horrible politics for the rejects in the party to publish names, but let’s be honest - if it had to happen to someone, better them than decent people, eh?”

…presumably the same logic applies to 42 day detention, which you and LC supported so vigorously. “It’s a bad precedent to lock people up without charge, but let’s be honest - if it had to happen to someone, better Muslims even though we’ve got no evidence against them than decent people, eh?”

Well, only if you possess no sense of proportion whatsoever, and can’t tell the difference between 1) legislation that empowers the state to incarcerate any citizen without officially charging them and 2) one fash idiot grassing up a load of other fash idiots for idiotic personal reasons of his own.

I don’t think publishing people’s personal details is either big or clever, but this is a clear case of the BNP booting themselves in the balls and I, for one, am not about to act all po-faced about it because a bunch of Tory concern trolls think having a laugh at Nick Griffin’s expense is a jolly bad show.

And, incidentally, the notion that this hilarious debacle will actually increase the BNP’s electoral appeal is surely too daft a notion for consideration. Some of the membership may well be terrified that they’ll be targeted by left wing extremists or liiberal elitists now one of their own has exposed them, but I’m willing to bet that a lot of them are far more embarrassed that their neighbours have been alerted to what small-minded morons the lot of them are.

In fact, I’ll bet folding money that the BNP’s recruitment this year will be lower than that of the North American Man/Boy Love Association, whose views on social issues are only slightly less popular with the American electorate than the fash themselves are in the UK.

Flying rodent nails it.

“this is a clear case of the BNP booting themselves in the balls and I, for one, am not about to act all po-faced about it because a bunch of Tory concern trolls think having a laugh at Nick Griffin’s expense is a jolly bad show. ”

Sums it up exactly.

a) I’m not a Tory

b) Nothing wrong with having a few digs at Nick Griffin but there are children on this list….anybody stopped to think about that??

[...] posts worth a look on this subject: Liberal Conspiracy,  Ian Bone, Nation of Duncan (several posts), Tygerland, Charlie Marks, Shiraz for a class [...]

I don’t believe publication of the list will improve recruitment.

I am not calling for debate, engagement, or embraces, with the BNP.

I think privacy breaches are in general wrong, even when they relate to people with whom I vehemently disagree. Note also that the list may not be accurate - someone publishing such a list may have no qualms about adding the details of non-members that he happens to dislike.

I think some LC regulars are too dismissive of what drives people to join or vote for the BNP. Clearly these people think the BNP is offering something that other parties are not. I do not know if membership is growing, but I think I am correct in claiming that the number of votes is increasing and their presence on local councils is increasing. This seems a bit of a concern, not helped by being dismissive of them all as a bunch of silly racists and fascists who will get what they deserve.

Is it not past time for a “constructive debate” in order to “develop, promote and discuss good ideas and policies” aimed at addressing the concerns of the ordinary voter who is inclined to support the BNP in some fashion? Because dismissal of their concerns and them personally does not seem to be working.

You just don’t get it, do you. This has nothing to do with the BNP - it’s the prinicple of putting people’s private details on the internet and having a good laugh about it. It doesn’t matter what party you are from. The BNP did not do this themselves - it appears to be a former employee, as I understand it, which makes the situation even more distasteful. Darrell and ukliberty make the extremely valid point that this list is clearly inaccurate and could have serious implications for people’s jobs and friendships even when they have nothing to do with the BNP, but that doesn’t stop people like Sally and Flying Rodent from gleefully shouting about it.

I am happy to disagree if you think this will hurt the BNP, but from what I see and read the BNP love to play the role of the underdog, the victimised and the persecuted. Invading the privacy of their members, in my opinion, will feed into this role brilliantly. And the standard yet amusing remarks about me being a troll are hilarious. I’ve been reading this site for months and months, frequently in support what LC writes (recent Paul Dacre story, Sarah Palin, 42 days etc etc) so your comments are totally unfounded. But nice try.

Readers of LC can dismiss and joke about the BNP all you want and label them fascists, unworthy of the political airwaves - but I doubt you’ll be laughing when they get their first MP or find themselves with real power.

http://www.lettersfromatory.com

[troll]
Sally your equation of British Conservatism with Fascism is the sort of jejune twitter than I have enjoyed for years . I think if there is a worry about the demonisation of a political Party of this sort it’s because the left and the progressive tactic has for so long , been to shut down numerous debates by extending the definition of racism to include any concern about immigration or Nationalist sentiment at all.

In this sense we might very reasonably say ‘They came for the Nazis today and tomorrow the Conservatives’ . You see in the leering befuddled person of Sally exactly the this sort of lazy thinking . . I t is highly unreasonable when it was only a strong coherent nation that stood against the Nazis as the little Euro principalities fell.It was the spirit of the Nation as personified by Winston Churchill who articulated the brave but reasonable English temperament . Furthermore just because we dropped nearly a million tons of bombs killing half a million Germans the left have sneered at the heroes of Bomber command ever since .

this is a clear case of the BNP booting themselves in the balls and I, for one, am not about to act all po-faced about it because a bunch of Tory concern trolls think having a laugh at Nick Griffin’s expense is a jolly bad show.

beautiful.

but there are children on this list….anybody stopped to think about that??

Erm, has any advocated doing anything to children? Get a grip mate, this list isn’t that difficult to find if you have any vague idea on how to use Google. So stop getting so precocious about it. I’m merely pointing to online widgets people have created in reponse to the list.

Incidentally, if this was the 70s or 80s, I have no doubt that some of my family members would be rounding up their mates with some baseballs bats and going down the list slowly. And I wouldn’t have stood in their way.

wow - a lot of debate about free speech and witch hunts against the BNP. But how can you say its all perfectly allright for the BNP to have their say when they actaully have a colour bar on membership???
If you have a bar on something as base as colour don’t you kind of give up any freedoms that other political (mainstream?) parties/groups have? Isn’t that why the members of the BNP were so fed up with the leak? If the labour data base was leaked sure there would be anger at the invasion of privacy but would there be the same embarrasment at their affiliation?
Yes we have freedom of speach but I’m sorry these bastards gave me too much of a hard time in the late 70s and 80s to feel any sympathy for them. I am yet to be chased down streets by Greens, Liberals, Commies or any other political group - unless they want me to sign a petition - like I had to with the NF/BNP.
Some young Muslims have been swayed by extremist muslim fundementalists and then have paid the price when caught. The BNP is really no different and their members no different either. The abhorance we have for those muslim fundementalists should be the same for the BNP members. They may not be suicide bombers in the BNP but cast your eye over their like in the rest of europe and here over the last how many years and you see the damage they do.
And by the way, how the hell can you work in the public sector in jobs like Teaching and the Police and be a member of the BNP? If they were members of some weird muslim group would that be ok too???
F0ck em is what I say

I’m also definitely not a Tory, and I think this whole attitude is bullshit, as is calling everyone who wishes for universal protection of law abiding individuals privacy and rights, regardless of if they disagree with them, someone who wishes to “embrace” fascisim and racism.

I don’t know how much this will change membership recruitment or rates, but what I would ask is exactly what the effects are of Redwatch? Do they make all socialists cower in fear and abandon their politics? As I understand it makes those that are more than fair-weather socialists more entrenched and determined, specifically against those that are wronging them.

So yes, this is all “a bit of fun” but I can’t help but feel that the outcome will be the same, entrenchment by those already in the BNP making them even less likely to leave, and harbour even greater resentment towards whatever groups the BNP spins this escapade as having been created from…be they socialists, immigrants, muslims, or whatever.

We’re just giving the BNP ammunition to lock down their membership and enhance dangerous views, why bother?

“wow - a lot of debate about free speech and witch hunts against the BNP. But how can you say its all perfectly allright for the BNP to have their say when they actaully have a colour bar on membership???”

Because thankfully we don’t live in a world of “an eye for an eye”

Sunny,

No they havent but dont you think we should stop assuming everybody is as responsbile as the people on this list???

As Letters says this isn’t about party…Sally you are showing the lack of understanding in your argument by aligning a Conservative with a left-wing Liberal Democrat through to the BNP and saying they are the same thing…how your mind can support such amazing contortions of reality is simply beyond me….it’s about the priciple of the thing…and as ukliberty rightly points too are not in danger of smearing people who are not, in fact, people who are not members of the BNP…

I refer especially to a piece in the Guardian where one person said;

“I’ve never had anything to do with them. I don’t know why my name was on that list.”

how your mind can support such amazing contortions of reality is simply beyond me

Darrel - and this is exactly my point. If I can make the distinction between a left-wing Libdem and a right-wing Tory, then you can spot the difference between linking to heatmaps and endangering the lives of children.

And to compare my links above to Redwatch is to basically say you have no sense of proportion.

“The BNP is really no different and their members no different either. The abhorance we have for those muslim fundementalists should be the same for the BNP members.”

Oh, and this is a RIDICULOUS comparison. We dislike Muslim fundamentalists that decide to cause death and destruction…but what we don’t do is say that all Muslims are terrorists (at least we here on LC don’t). Yet you’re saying all BNP members are definitely absolutely in tune with the BNP party line. So what…we can be tollerant of one group of people that has some bad apples, however many bad apples that is…but we can’t also acknowledge that potentially not all BNP members are more than slightly xenophobic but ultimately just misguided and scared?

As UK Liberty is saying, it’s about time we stopped just banning the BNP, supporting no platform and promoting union wishes to remove BNP members from their rights…and it’s time we started engaging in debate to try and pull these misguided people away from a party that they aren’t necessarily most in tune with. Clearly the former way of thinking isn’t working, so why not try a new tact?

Sunny,

When did I compare your comments to Redwatch?? Concretly i’d like a quote…

Because errr beyond the heatmaps is peoples names and addresses which the postcode finder helps you identify….so, assuming i’m right and everybody seeing this data might not be as responsible and humane as us and controbitors here is it not the responsible issue to be weary of spreading names, addresses etc??

Incidentally, if this was the 70s or 80s, I have no doubt that some of my family members would be rounding up their mates with some baseballs bats and going down the list slowly. And I wouldn’t have stood in their way.

All names on the list are of people who are definitely fascists and racists and deserve to be beaten up - is that an accurate summary of Sunny’s position?

[troll]
Sunny am I actually banned from this site you seem to be deleting all my comments and I am far from clear why ? If it is on grounds of good manners then these are not standards that are uniformly applied ( to say the least) . What next burning books ?

You just don’t get it, do you. This has nothing to do with the BNP - it’s the prinicple of putting people’s private details on the internet and having a good laugh about it.

I get it fine, which is why I’ve repeatedly said that publishing people’s details like this is unacceptable.

OTOH, the toothpaste is clearly out of the tube and cannot be squeezed back in. This being the case, I see no reason why I should refrain from waving wanker-hands, and the more I read in this thread - abject, largely fraudulent concern for the poor children/liberal principles/furry puppies of Parliamentary democracy, the more convinced I am that it’s entirely the correct attitude to take.

Clearly the former way of thinking isn’t working, so why not try a new tact?

(Pardon me if I try to hoover up a lot of people’s fundamentally erroneous points here…)

Well damn the evidence of my own eyes, but clearly it is working, especially when compared to other European countries - countries with lower immigration rates, at that. I see no fash MPs, and given a sniff of power BNP councillors quickly discover that running a local authority is more difficult than pushing dogshit through a pakistani shopkeeper’s letterbox, duly collapsing into infighting. If you want evidence for that assertion, why not look at the supposed originator of this list or watch the party’s members falling over themselves to pretend they’ve got no connection to the party?

Seriously, the BNP and their supporters can all sod off. If their membership want to vote based on who’s going to send more foreigners home, then nobody’s ever going to challenge them on race baiting, however hard they try. What would be the point?

Let them do their worst, I say. I’d say at practically all Britons are too smart to fall for the BNP’s lying bullshit and can spot violent thugs a mile off, so I’m not especially concerned about a BNP voting bloc in Parliament.

That said, I’m sick of internet tools and talk radio goons announcing that it’s gone too far, I’ll be voting for the BNP at the next election. Go on then, dumbass, if it’ll shut you up - just don’t go kicking off when the burly skinheads you elect try to blame the council’s bankruptcy on the blacks and the commies.

Get a grip Newmania - Obviously you have no experience of being on the other end of the NF in the 70s & 80s. Sometimes scars take a long time to heal. Do you honestly think they didn’t do the beating up then???
Lee Griffin - a colour bar mate……………………..doesn’t that mean anything to you?

What goes around comes around and if some BNP members get prank calls then so be it. It’s a long time coming.

#48 - my point wasn’t that the Communists were t3h 3vilz for beating up Nazis, but that their actions in doing so did absolutely nothing to keep the Nazis out of power…

…but we can’t also acknowledge that potentially not all BNP members are more than slightly xenophobic but ultimately just misguided and scared? ~ Lee Griffin

I agree with Lee. Misguided, scared or whatever.

Being a member of the BNP does not make you a racist.

Obviously you have no experience of being on the other end of the NF in the 70s & 80s. ~ ace

I have no experience of this either. But then I don’t think many of the BNP members on the list remember dishing it out as they’re not necessarily one and the same.

I’ve no doubt that many members of the BNP are racist wankers, who spend much of their spare time dreaming of tying up a communist and slapping them across the face with their flaccid dicks, but then many are working class people who are disenfranchised by the political system. Not necessarily racists or Commie-bashers.

The sad truth is that many BNP members feel that politics has failed. And considering the abandonment of the working class in modern political discourse, is it any wonder?

Vindicating BNP propaganda by organised outrage plays straight into their hands.

the more I read in this thread - abject, largely fraudulent concern for the poor children/liberal principles/furry puppies of Parliamentary democracy, the more convinced I am that it’s entirely the correct attitude to take.

“I do not agree with them, therefore they are insincere.”

What’s the name for this logical fallacy?

‘… spend much of their spare time dreaming of tying up a communist and slapping them across the face with their flaccid dicks,..’

sounds like Friday night round at Newmania’s

[troll]
Aaron is on to something. To develop it in a way he would probably hate ….

Surely there must be a level of disquiet when privileged people gleefully make working class people unemployed for their political views . How many Liberal cons are on a housing list they think is loaded against them . How many will send their children to schools failing to cope with endless languages or have seen communities fragmented . How many actually live in a community in any meaningful way or are sustained by it .
Many many Labour voters in particular are some time BNP supporters . With the contempt habitually poured on the socially conservative and nationalist working class by their Labour Party betters no wonder they feel unrepresented . Apart from anything else immigration has now quintupled its rate since Labour came to power. Concern about this fact is almost universal outside the political class .
Liberals hate this , I know , because to them its all about a homogenous “Human “ set of rights. A country is quaint inconvenience . Most people however see rights as earned by membership of club /country which is home an identity in some sense and an inheritance. There has been disdainful resistance to an acknowledge this communitarian and typically working class English view but it is entirely valid and has no voice .

Letter From A Tory’s comments would be fair enough, if they were directed at the person who actually published the list.

But unless I’m mistaken, it wasn’t Sunny.

Most people however see rights as earned by membership of club /country which is home an identity in some sense and an inheritance. There has been disdainful resistance to an acknowledge this communitarian and typically working class English view but it is entirely valid and has no voice .

Do they really have this view or are they relating particular issues to immigration?

What gives one person but not another a ‘right’ to make a country his home?

Does a nation have a ‘right’ to control the territory it occupies, allowing or excluding individuals as it sees fit?

“I do not agree with them, therefore they are insincere.”

What’s the name for this logical fallacy?

I think it’s “Ad hominem circumstantial.”

Darrell, thanks for your contributions above. You have restored my faith in humanity.

“Letter From A Tory’s comments would be fair enough, if they were directed at the person who actually published the list.

But unless I’m mistaken, it wasn’t Sunny.”

Exactly! He is just coming on here to concern troll.

Newmania- I see you are at it again.

“Surely there must be a level of disquiet when privileged people gleefully make working class people unemployed for their political views”

Their views on race mean they cannot do their job. Period. How can a copper do his job when he is a member of an organisation that given half a chance would have all non white english sent out of the country??? If a copper was found to be a member of the Nation of Islam do you think his position would be tenable? Hell no. And if this truly is a democracy then why have succesive governments stopped Louis Farakhan coming into the country? Because his views may stoke racial trouble. A bit like Griffin, but oh hang on he is english so his freedom of speech neds defending. And it is only coppers that could lose their job NO ONE else.
And anyway if not all BNP members are racist then at least now they have a damn good idea about what their party is really all about. That was hard to type as I don’t believe a word of it!

Newmania, your desription of the attitude of so-called liberals is correct. There are a lot of white middle-class so called liberals in my locality, who pay lip-service to diversity and multi-culturalism and wet their pants when anyone criticises mass immigration poliices. However, they practise the old liberal mantra of “do as I say, not as I do”. They segregate themselves in their own little oasis and ensure their children avoid the multi-cultural schools (no GCSE in Somalian for their little Johnny). For them, mass immigration is an opportunity to exploit. As long as they can avoid the associated problems, stuff the rest.

Shameless self-promotion time….i submitted the below to LC but it was rejected on the grounds it was felt that it didn’t merit a seprate thread…so, I am going to use this one to shamelessly promote the reply I penned to some of the points Sunny raised here over at my blog ;)…link is

http://momentsofc.blogspot.com/2008/11/privacy-and-left-reply-to-sunny-hundal.html

Being a member of the BNP does not make you a racist.

Oddly I have always found people who mutter darkly about immigrants taking jobs and benefits and houses fit very well into the definition of racism. I do not think that every member of the BNP is fundamentally nasty but I do think that they are all racist.

newmania,

You’re right in some aspects.

But it’s not only Labour that have abandoned their base for a mad dash to the centre.

Tories have too abandoned their base in the search for the dwindling political oxygen in the middle ground. Such is the perceived need for middle class voters, all parties have vacated a holistic approach to politics for a desperate race to capture the rump.

Those marginalised will always seek comfort with radical elements.

It is this partisan divide that separates us. I have no party.

Aaron - “Being a member of the BNP does not make you a racist.”

Not sure I agree with this. I’ll concede that not all those who vote BNP are necessarily racists, but there’s a pretty big difference between just voting for a party and actually joining that party. Membership of an organisation implies you’re signed up to that organisation’s ideology/politics/hate-fest/call it what you will, so it’s a much stronger statement of support than simply ticking a box on a voting slip.

Not sure I agree with this. I’ll concede that not all those who vote BNP are necessarily racists, but there’s a pretty big difference between just voting for a party and actually joining that party. Membership of an organisation implies you’re signed up to that organisation’s ideology/politics/hate-fest/call it what you will, so it’s a much stronger statement of support than simply ticking a box on a voting slip. ~ Cath Elliot

That depends on how those members contribute.

Are they members or event-attending kool-aid drinkers?

Not every Labour member has attended a local party meeting. I suspect many BNP members are similarly dis-connected with the party en masse. I have relatives who didn’t join UKIP simply because they thought they were an off-shoot of the BNP. I explained that UKIP were not the BNP (merely a comedy Tory off-shoot) and they were surprised.

Not everyone is as politically savvy as us. Many of the BNP membership may well have bought into the increasingly inclusive, value-based policies of the modern BNP.

We should be careful of any sort of organised attack against BNP ‘members’.

[troll]
Sounds convincing Aaron but it is actually not s symmetrical position. The Labour movement ,as it once was , was always an alliance of working class economic interests and a Fabian or progressive element that occupied its commanding heights . Conservatives have never had that sort of fissure in the first place and David Cameron is more of a return to Conservatism than a departure from it . He will no6t call himself a one nation Conservative since Heath made the phrase a shameful one but he is a very traditional leader ( as Thatcher was not )

I don’t think “one conservatism” so much a bad thing. More to follow. http://tygerland.net/2007/07/02/on-chav-hatred/

I recommend reading the Out-Law briefing on the Data Protection Act at:
http://www.out-law.com/page-413

Clearly, the leakers of the list of names (I decline to refer to it as a membership list) are in breach of the Act. But what about the compilers of mash-ups that access data which may be held in databases elsewhere? They may believe that they are innocent of breaking the law because they do not directly hold the data. But Out-Law’s definition of a Data Controller (”A data controller is the person who determines the purposes for which, and the manner in which, any personal data is, or is likely to be, processed. In other words, you will be a data controller if the processing of personal data is undertaken for your benefit and you decide what personal data should be processed and why.”) suggests that they are responsible. The act of creating a mash-up requires that they process data using a computer, and given that the individuals who provided the data did not consent, then those who process the data are on dodgy ground. One defence might be that they used anonymised data, but if they are using six digit post codes (which may identify a single household) that defence is very weak. [If you have a census record handy, note how the editors occasionally omit bits of data about non-white households in a small area that is predominantly white.]

If I was looking to employ a webby, database sort of programmer, I would definitely try to identify the individuals who created the mash-ups. They don’t understand the concepts of privacy or data protection, and thus cannot be trusted. The fact that data has leaked, against the wishes of the data subjects, does not mean that you can use it for entertainment, political research etc. My opinion of those who fail to understand this basic principle is diminished.

As a liberal, I agree that there are times when the law should be ignored or deliberately broken, or when it is moral to breach a personal confidence, but this is not one of those times. Should you wish to know the identity of your political opponents, you can stay inside the law or conventional morals by traditional techniques: canvassing, attending public meetings, looking at who signs the nomination forms etc. You’ll learn far more about the BNP that way.

Note 1: My understanding of data protection law comes from being a sys admin, not a lawyer.

Note 2: There are some cases where presence of a name on the list raises a public interest defence for disclosure. That excludes about 11,900 of them.

Nearly 200,000 people voted for the BNP at the last election. I’ll grant that most of them are not racist scum. Are the roughly 10,000 people who expressly pay money to the BNP likely to be racist scum? In a majority, yes.

That said, it doesn’t mean I’m opposed to taking on the BNP’s arguments and finding out ways to draw voters away from them. This post certainly does not go away from that.

But it ridicules the BNP, and its leadership and makes ordinary people even less likely to put their faith in Nick Griffin. I am firmly in favour of that because to me undermining the BNP leadership is an important tactic against them. If you don’t agree, fine. Everyone’s got a right to their own opinion.

Sunny - couldn’t agree more. Griffin has to explain to the rank and file how their outing has happened and judging from some of their message boards they are pretty angry with him.
That in itself is a good thing.
Yeah some members might not know the full history of the nazis sorry NF sorry i mean BNP but I guess they have more of an idea now. Same for potential new members who don’t really know their real aims. You could say its beena bit of an education for some BNP members and I’m all for people getting more of a political education.
To that end the leak is all good.

Sunny H: “Are the roughly 10,000 people who expressly pay money to the BNP likely to be racist scum? In a majority, yes.”

The fact that 10,000+ people are willing to “join” the BNP (accepting those numbers) means very little. The number of donations from unique individuals would be more meaningful, and more comparable to donations to mainstream or minority political parties. But those figures only quantify bad thought, not activists.

I wrote previously on my misgivings about analysing the leaked data. If I was a Searchlighter, the list might tell me that, (random percentage) 25% of fascist activists are allegedly members of the BNP, but that activist total would be tiny compared to the total number of BNP members. Most fascist/Nazi activists are not on that list. The list primarily defines passive racists who don’t wear bomber jackets and who don’t deliver excrement through letter boxes. There may be an outlier individual on the list who has not been previously spotted by Searchlight or the security services, but their use of the list comes under the “public interest” defence.

Does anyone here read the Waltham Forest Guardian?

I think reports such as today’s demonstrate why the BNP can’t currently be accepted into the family of democratic politics and be given an equal seat at the negotiating table.

In a different era their behaviour would be called treason and be punished accordingly, but we have evolved beyond those brutal times and no longer need to take recourse to extreme persecution because we have an institutional framework which enables us to prosecute our case more rationally.

Until the BNP publically and unequivocally renounces violent and underhand methods and stops trying to subvert the political system for their narrow ends I think it is perfectly fair that the rest of us should be able to stand together in solidarity and make demands of them.

And until they do so they will inevitably provoke a reaction from less restrained members of society, which I can neither condone or condemn. They are responsible to themselves for the way people respond to them, as are we all.

Ace: “Griffin has to explain to the rank and file how their outing has happened”

Griffin is required to explain, but he is not necessarily culpable. The full BNP membership list is held by a small number of individuals, who are legally Data Controllers. The list is never transmitted in clear text, according to their formal mechanisms. Local branches only receive a list of local members which is sent to them in encrypted format.

Griffin can comfortably argue that he has employed mechanisms that protect the data. The attack on Griffin has to be about whether he placed too much trust in the people with lists. The same argument, no doubt, goes on in every corporate data centre.

thomas: Would perhaps help if you linked to it.

The DPA offence of obtaining personal data isn’t viral so once information gets into the wild no action can be taken - although if you have a copy you could face subject access requests, etc.

Basically, the BNP has no case against anyone under DPA but the individual who leaked the info and set the ball rolling, all they have iopen are common law privacy suits a la Max Mosley.

Does thomas mean this and this?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=BUNUuqlG1a0

HT: b3ta

This comment on Andrew’s video is one of the best I’ve ever seen.

This is well put together. But the stereotype is aweful. The BNP are not Nazis nor racist.

Go and bum Stalin you bunch of left wing idiots.

VOTE BNP.

Why is it so funny?

Unity: “Basically, the BNP has no case against anyone under DPA”

If the information that has been reported about the BNP’s security measures are true, the BNP has nothing to worry about wrt DPA prosecution. And I agree, that the BNP can only report data theft to the Information Commissioner’s Office.

However, the intention and wording of the Data Protection Act is “viral”. If you find a USB storage disk on the street containing information about other people, that discovery does not confer new rights outside of DPA to the discoverer. You cannot use that data and your responsibility is to report the loss. The same rule applies if you discover personal information from a UK database on a web site hosted outside the UK.

Anyone who further processes the BNP list is subject to DPA unless they can argue that it will not cause harm to the data subject. Thus if a data subject can demonstrate that s/he is easily identifiable by a mash-up or similar, that person can complain to the Information Commissioner.

This could get Griffin the boot and also giving the bnp a lot of exposure

[...] Oh my Gawd, Sunny, David T and Bob Piper all found it too. It’s like 2005 when I was last a blogger of some [...]