Comments on: Crewe and Nantwich: Beginning of the End http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/ If there wasn't one before, it's time we started it... Thu, 20 Nov 2008 10:34:13 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Alan Thomas http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10980 Alan Thomas Sat, 24 May 2008 06:06:41 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10980 My guess would be that McDonnell still wouldn't get the nominations, from my perspective unfortunately so. Cruddas might, but it depends whether he's inclined to launch what would inevitably be a doomed, "stalking horse" type challenge when I imagine he has his eyes on a career. Far more likely would be a challenge from the right, but actually I think all this is gravy when it comes down to it. We've seen one of those sea change moments in politics, much like the late 70s and mid 90s. There's now not anywhere in the country where the Tories can't at least mount some kind of challenge. Ergo I suspect we're looking at a Cameron administration from 2009. My guess would be that McDonnell still wouldn’t get the nominations, from my perspective unfortunately so. Cruddas might, but it depends whether he’s inclined to launch what would inevitably be a doomed, “stalking horse” type challenge when I imagine he has his eyes on a career. Far more likely would be a challenge from the right, but actually I think all this is gravy when it comes down to it. We’ve seen one of those sea change moments in politics, much like the late 70s and mid 90s. There’s now not anywhere in the country where the Tories can’t at least mount some kind of challenge. Ergo I suspect we’re looking at a Cameron administration from 2009.

]]> By: Leon http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10942 Leon Fri, 23 May 2008 15:53:15 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10942 Well it looks like no one has the balls the challenge Gordon despite the opportunity... <blockquote>Bizarrely, I think Gordon will hoping they do. An unsuccesful challenge by Charles Clarke, or someone else who really couldn’t be elected Labour leader in a month of Sundays, could be just about the only way Gordon can revive his premiership.</blockquote> I'd largely agree with this but not sure Brown sees it that way! Well it looks like no one has the balls the challenge Gordon despite the opportunity…

Bizarrely, I think Gordon will hoping they do.

An unsuccesful challenge by Charles Clarke, or someone else who really couldn’t be elected Labour leader in a month of Sundays, could be just about the only way Gordon can revive his premiership.

I’d largely agree with this but not sure Brown sees it that way!

]]> By: Seany C http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10939 Seany C Fri, 23 May 2008 15:28:07 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10939 A leadership challenge from the party's right (Milburn et al) would be helpful as it would force Brown to defend the party's leftwing values and traditions (what's left of them). A challenge from the 'left' would be more likely, alas, to push Brown towards the triangulators and the Milburn tendency. Although Brown would benefit from winning an internal challenge (as MatGB alluded to with the Major-Redwood reference), I think he'll do everything he can to avoid one. The successful seeing-off of a leadership challenge (by scaring MPs from nominating McDonnell et al) last spring suggests that he'd be frit of any official challenge to his position. I hope I'm wrong but I can easily imagine him deferring the election to the last possible days without changing course at all, desperately hoping, Micawber-style, that 'something will turn up'... A leadership challenge from the party’s right (Milburn et al) would be helpful as it would force Brown to defend the party’s leftwing values and traditions (what’s left of them).

A challenge from the ‘left’ would be more likely, alas, to push Brown towards the triangulators and the Milburn tendency.

Although Brown would benefit from winning an internal challenge (as MatGB alluded to with the Major-Redwood reference), I think he’ll do everything he can to avoid one. The successful seeing-off of a leadership challenge (by scaring MPs from nominating McDonnell et al) last spring suggests that he’d be frit of any official challenge to his position.
I hope I’m wrong but I can easily imagine him deferring the election to the last possible days without changing course at all, desperately hoping, Micawber-style, that ’something will turn up’…

]]> By: Andreas Paterson http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10925 Andreas Paterson Fri, 23 May 2008 10:42:43 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10925 Alan, I disagree, there are plenty of people for whom immigration is a serious concern and a fair number of those are working class people who the Labour party should be representing. Over the past few years we have seen the government unable to effectively answer questions on the number of foreign nationals and have also had government estimates called into question. As a result the government proposes the use of the forthcoming national identity register, as a method of keeping track of foreign nationals entering the country. For all their tough talk, the Tories don't have a leg to stand on when it comes to immigration and I don't see why Labour shouldn't point this out in it's leaflets. Alan, I disagree, there are plenty of people for whom immigration is a serious concern and a fair number of those are working class people who the Labour party should be representing.

Over the past few years we have seen the government unable to effectively answer questions on the number of foreign nationals and have also had government estimates called into question. As a result the government proposes the use of the forthcoming national identity register, as a method of keeping track of foreign nationals entering the country.

For all their tough talk, the Tories don’t have a leg to stand on when it comes to immigration and I don’t see why Labour shouldn’t point this out in it’s leaflets.

]]> By: Alan Thomas http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10912 Alan Thomas Thu, 22 May 2008 21:55:29 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10912 Cheers Mat I get you now :) Similarly, when I talk about "left" I do mean people who are socially liberal and inclined to decentralise (in the sense of empower the populace) in terms of political power. For me, the two are and should be connected. Cheers Mat I get you now :)

Similarly, when I talk about “left” I do mean people who are socially liberal and inclined to decentralise (in the sense of empower the populace) in terms of political power. For me, the two are and should be connected.

]]> By: MatGB http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10910 MatGB Thu, 22 May 2008 21:44:40 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10910 Alan, crossover again—I meant to capitalise, apologies, by Radicals I was jokingly referring to Mill's description of the old Liberal party before it split three ways, Whigs, Liberals and Radicals: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicals_(UK) Given that the modern Labour party absorbed a bunch of the Liberals, I tend to refer to those from that tradition as Radicals, although it's a horribly obscure reference. Alan, crossover again—I meant to capitalise, apologies, by Radicals I was jokingly referring to Mill’s description of the old Liberal party before it split three ways, Whigs, Liberals and Radicals:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radicals_(UK)

Given that the modern Labour party absorbed a bunch of the Liberals, I tend to refer to those from that tradition as Radicals, although it’s a horribly obscure reference.

]]> By: MatGB http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10909 MatGB Thu, 22 May 2008 21:36:14 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10909 Aye, Brown and supporters should by now be regretting the coronation, and while it didn't sort things for him, Major managed to quell a lot of critics after he fought of Redwood. The big question of course is will a big enough figure to be a threat actually run? Field has no chance, Milburn's been rumoured—would a Cabinet minister have the guts to give it a go? Harman's looked very uncomfortable in a few TV interviews recently... Aye, Brown and supporters should by now be regretting the coronation, and while it didn’t sort things for him, Major managed to quell a lot of critics after he fought of Redwood.

The big question of course is will a big enough figure to be a threat actually run? Field has no chance, Milburn’s been rumoured—would a Cabinet minister have the guts to give it a go? Harman’s looked very uncomfortable in a few TV interviews recently…

]]> By: Alan Thomas http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10908 Alan Thomas Thu, 22 May 2008 21:32:53 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10908 Of course it was utterly disgraceful. Seeing any kind of left-wing, socially liberal or "radical" (an undefined term if ever there was one) party trying to come at the dominant party of the right, <b>from the right</b> on immigration, is disgraceful. I never thought I'd see the day when a Labour campaign went grubbing for votes based on attacks on one of the most vulnerable groups in society. How on earth else would you define such a thing, but as a shameful disgrace to progressive politics? Of course it was utterly disgraceful. Seeing any kind of left-wing, socially liberal or “radical” (an undefined term if ever there was one) party trying to come at the dominant party of the right, from the right on immigration, is disgraceful. I never thought I’d see the day when a Labour campaign went grubbing for votes based on attacks on one of the most vulnerable groups in society. How on earth else would you define such a thing, but as a shameful disgrace to progressive politics?

]]> By: Sunny Hundal http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10907 Sunny Hundal Thu, 22 May 2008 21:25:03 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10907 Andreas: <i>Swiftboat Vets was disgraceful, Willie Horton was disgraceful. On our side of the fence, what Miranda Grell did was disgraceful, Crewe & Nantwich was just bad.</i> Yes, I'd agree with that. Paul: <i>An unsuccesful challenge by Charles Clarke, or someone else who really couldn’t be elected Labour leader in a month of Sundays, could be just about the only way Gordon can revive his premiership.</i> Agree with that too. I have a feeling Frank Field might try something... Andreas: Swiftboat Vets was disgraceful, Willie Horton was disgraceful. On our side of the fence, what Miranda Grell did was disgraceful, Crewe & Nantwich was just bad.

Yes, I’d agree with that.

Paul: An unsuccesful challenge by Charles Clarke, or someone else who really couldn’t be elected Labour leader in a month of Sundays, could be just about the only way Gordon can revive his premiership.

Agree with that too. I have a feeling Frank Field might try something…

]]> By: Paul Linford http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10905 Paul Linford Thu, 22 May 2008 21:12:23 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10905 Leon Bizarrely, I think Gordon will hoping they do. An unsuccesful challenge by Charles Clarke, or someone else who really couldn't be elected Labour leader in a month of Sundays, could be just about the only way Gordon can revive his premiership. Leon

Bizarrely, I think Gordon will hoping they do.

An unsuccesful challenge by Charles Clarke, or someone else who really couldn’t be elected Labour leader in a month of Sundays, could be just about the only way Gordon can revive his premiership.

]]> By: leon http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10903 leon Thu, 22 May 2008 20:34:40 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10903 Will be interesting to see if any of those leadership challenges rumours turn real tomorrow if today turns out to be a real disaster for Labour.... Will be interesting to see if any of those leadership challenges rumours turn real tomorrow if today turns out to be a real disaster for Labour….

]]> By: Bishop Hill http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10895 Bishop Hill Thu, 22 May 2008 19:16:53 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10895 Bob Piper You seem to equate "there is a market for coal" with "UK pits were economic". Firstly there is a difference in tense. The Chinese economy in 1983 was run on Marxist lines. It's a bit different to saying that they are importing coal now. Secondly, even if they were importing coal then, so what? - would they want to buy expensive deep-mined coal from the UK or cheap opencast mined coal from other places? Bob Piper

You seem to equate “there is a market for coal” with “UK pits were economic”.

Firstly there is a difference in tense. The Chinese economy in 1983 was run on Marxist lines. It’s a bit different to saying that they are importing coal now.

Secondly, even if they were importing coal then, so what? - would they want to buy expensive deep-mined coal from the UK or cheap opencast mined coal from other places?

]]> By: Winston http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10894 Winston Thu, 22 May 2008 17:58:21 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10894 Andreas, It has been disgraceful, Labour have attacked the Tories from the RIGHT(!) on immigration and crime, they've said things that the modern Tory party wouldn't even dare say. As for the rest of the campaign, if you aren't going to campaign on issues you'd better make sure that your candidate has a very likeable personality. Tamsin Dunwoody might be a very nice woman, but she's backed up by a very negative campaign which only serves to make her look a bit nasty added to the fact that she's been parachuted in in an apparent attempt at a quasi hereditary coup (and what is it about woman in the Labour party looking permanently smug?). In this campaign of personalities rather than policies she's up against Timpsom-nice-but-dimsum, every so charming grew up in a virtual orphanage and fights for the rights of the single mums. To run a campain on personalities against that was utterly stupid. Andreas,

It has been disgraceful, Labour have attacked the Tories from the RIGHT(!) on immigration and crime, they’ve said things that the modern Tory party wouldn’t even dare say.

As for the rest of the campaign, if you aren’t going to campaign on issues you’d better make sure that your candidate has a very likeable personality. Tamsin Dunwoody might be a very nice woman, but she’s backed up by a very negative campaign which only serves to make her look a bit nasty added to the fact that she’s been parachuted in in an apparent attempt at a quasi hereditary coup (and what is it about woman in the Labour party looking permanently smug?). In this campaign of personalities rather than policies she’s up against Timpsom-nice-but-dimsum, every so charming grew up in a virtual orphanage and fights for the rights of the single mums.

To run a campain on personalities against that was utterly stupid.

]]> By: ad http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10891 ad Thu, 22 May 2008 17:39:45 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10891 <i>And Thatcher did close the pits. And she did it out of political vindictiveness, not economics. </i> No one seemed to want to buy them. Why not, if they were profitable? <i>Can’t the liberal, decentralist reformist tendency (like, say, Unity of this parish) do something to reclaim the party?</i> They never controlled it in the first place - certainly not in the days of Scargill etc. It occurs to me that vested interests within the public sector must also be represented within the Labour Party, precisely because it is so representative of the public sector. By implication, the best hope of a reformist tendency within Labour is a Cameron government which successfully destroys those interests. In the same way that Thatcher destroyed the old union baronies. And Thatcher did close the pits. And she did it out of political vindictiveness, not economics.

No one seemed to want to buy them. Why not, if they were profitable?

Can’t the liberal, decentralist reformist tendency (like, say, Unity of this parish) do something to reclaim the party?

They never controlled it in the first place - certainly not in the days of Scargill etc. It occurs to me that vested interests within the public sector must also be represented within the Labour Party, precisely because it is so representative of the public sector. By implication, the best hope of a reformist tendency within Labour is a Cameron government which successfully destroys those interests.

In the same way that Thatcher destroyed the old union baronies.

]]> By: Andreas Paterson http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10883 Andreas Paterson Thu, 22 May 2008 16:08:24 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10883 Nothing wrong with calling the campaign "shit","crap" or "nasty". I certainly don't think it's the kind of campaign Labour should have run. What I object to is the way so many commentators have decided to chip in and criticise the campaign, often going over the top with their criticsm. Just as the original poster does here with his “utterly disgraceful”. Swiftboat Vets was disgraceful, Willie Horton was disgraceful. On our side of the fence, what Miranda Grell did was disgraceful, Crewe & Nantwich was just bad. Nothing wrong with calling the campaign “shit”,”crap” or “nasty”. I certainly don’t think it’s the kind of campaign Labour should have run. What I object to is the way so many commentators have decided to chip in and criticise the campaign, often going over the top with their criticsm. Just as the original poster does here with his “utterly disgraceful”.

Swiftboat Vets was disgraceful, Willie Horton was disgraceful. On our side of the fence, what Miranda Grell did was disgraceful, Crewe & Nantwich was just bad.

]]> By: cjcjc http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10882 cjcjc Thu, 22 May 2008 15:48:18 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10882 Andreas - it seems to be mostly Labourites who think it disgraceful. The Tories love it! Andreas - it seems to be mostly Labourites who think it disgraceful.
The Tories love it!

]]> By: MatGB http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10876 MatGB Thu, 22 May 2008 15:20:13 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10876 Andreas—I don't think it's disgraceful. I think it's both shit and counter-productive. Attacking Boris as a "toff" didn't help and probably helped him, and doing so in Crewe isn't going to do much there either. I dont want Labour to get wiped out at the next GE, which is why I critique—a Cameron landslide is a horribly thought to behold. Ergo, if I see a shit campaign that's losing you votes, I'll say it. Campaign on issues, attack on actual character. The class war rhetoric was outdated twenty years ago, now? It's just a vote loser. Of course, I might be wrong and you might still win—but the bookies don't think so. Andreas—I don’t think it’s disgraceful. I think it’s both shit and counter-productive. Attacking Boris as a “toff” didn’t help and probably helped him, and doing so in Crewe isn’t going to do much there either.

I dont want Labour to get wiped out at the next GE, which is why I critique—a Cameron landslide is a horribly thought to behold. Ergo, if I see a shit campaign that’s losing you votes, I’ll say it.

Campaign on issues, attack on actual character. The class war rhetoric was outdated twenty years ago, now? It’s just a vote loser.

Of course, I might be wrong and you might still win—but the bookies don’t think so.

]]> By: Andreas Paterson http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10875 Andreas Paterson Thu, 22 May 2008 15:14:03 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10875 I'm a Labour supporter, and I'm getting really fed up of all this hyperbole over our Crewe and Nantwich campaign. I reading far too much about how "utterly disgraceful" it is, I think that's a serious exaggeration and I'm disappointed that so many people have jumped on this particular bandwagon. I’m a Labour supporter, and I’m getting really fed up of all this hyperbole over our Crewe and Nantwich campaign. I reading far too much about how “utterly disgraceful” it is, I think that’s a serious exaggeration and I’m disappointed that so many people have jumped on this particular bandwagon.

]]> By: MatGB http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10873 MatGB Thu, 22 May 2008 14:36:37 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10873 Tim—my money, if I had any, would be Lib Dems in 2nd place—I reckon the Tories have it in the bag (such a piss poor Labour campaign has helped them FFS), and others will defect to Lib Dems, others will stay at home. It's only a by-election, and years of election watching says it'll return to the fold at the next general (unless there's a wipeout). Lib Dem by-election wins need a few more weeks to campaign in, that's one of the reasons Labour moved the writ so early. The Tories are a bit over-confident in Henley for Boris to not have taken the Hundreds already methinks. Tim—my money, if I had any, would be Lib Dems in 2nd place—I reckon the Tories have it in the bag (such a piss poor Labour campaign has helped them FFS), and others will defect to Lib Dems, others will stay at home.

It’s only a by-election, and years of election watching says it’ll return to the fold at the next general (unless there’s a wipeout).

Lib Dem by-election wins need a few more weeks to campaign in, that’s one of the reasons Labour moved the writ so early. The Tories are a bit over-confident in Henley for Boris to not have taken the Hundreds already methinks.

]]> By: Tim Phillips-White http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10872 Tim Phillips-White Thu, 22 May 2008 14:21:18 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/05/22/crewe-and-nantwich-beginning-of-the-end/#comment-10872 Like me, there are a lot of Labour supporters in Crewe who are thoroughly pissed off with the party. You can almost smell the sense of betrayal in the air, and it stinks; however these people must think very carefully about where they place their votes today. Make no mistake, things are very bad right now, and it looks as if they could get a hell of lot worse by this evening. Even then, from a personal level, the thought of Labour supporters voting Tory is beyond my comprehension. This is something that I could never, EVER dream of doing; to be honest the very thought if it disgusts me! Various sources tell us that the Lib Dems will benefit as a result of the governments retreating support. Now, I would admit that I’ve voted Lib Dem in the past; in fact I did a few weeks ago at the local elections. This is totally different though. By switching to the Lib Dems, the only thing that will be achieved is a Tory victory. Lets be honest here - there is a far greater chance of Scarlet Johansson phoning me this afternoon and inviting me out for dinner then there is of the Lib Dems winning this seat. In their heart of hearts they know this – one only had to see the Cleggster at PMQs yesterday - he didn’t even mention the by-election. Like me, there are a lot of Labour supporters in Crewe who are thoroughly pissed off with the party. You can almost smell the sense of betrayal in the air, and it stinks; however these people must think very carefully about where they place their votes today.

Make no mistake, things are very bad right now, and it looks as if they could get a hell of lot worse by this evening. Even then, from a personal level, the thought of Labour supporters voting Tory is beyond my comprehension. This is something that I could never, EVER dream of doing; to be honest the very thought if it disgusts me!

Various sources tell us that the Lib Dems will benefit as a result of the governments retreating support. Now, I would admit that I’ve voted Lib Dem in the past; in fact I did a few weeks ago at the local elections. This is totally different though.

By switching to the Lib Dems, the only thing that will be achieved is a Tory victory. Lets be honest here - there is a far greater chance of Scarlet Johansson phoning me this afternoon and inviting me out for dinner then there is of the Lib Dems winning this seat. In their heart of hearts they know this – one only had to see the Cleggster at PMQs yesterday - he didn’t even mention the by-election.

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