Comments on: England and St George? http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/ If there wasn't one before, it's time we started it... Thu, 24 Jul 2008 09:03:23 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: john b http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9263 john b Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:50:35 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9263 "Nationhood is socially constructed, so St George has whatever meaning you wish him to have" Well , I believe that, you believe that and Billy Bragg believes that. The point is that the racists *don't* think nationhood is socially constructed, they think it's based on ethnicity. "By your logic Hitler wasn’t German so Germans aren’t to blame for him ??" No, because he identified as German and the German people voted for him. If the Mexicans in 500 years' time were to adopt Hitler as a great national figure, that would be a closer parallel... “Nationhood is socially constructed, so St George has whatever meaning you wish him to have”

Well , I believe that, you believe that and Billy Bragg believes that. The point is that the racists *don’t* think nationhood is socially constructed, they think it’s based on ethnicity.

“By your logic Hitler wasn’t German so Germans aren’t to blame for him ??”

No, because he identified as German and the German people voted for him. If the Mexicans in 500 years’ time were to adopt Hitler as a great national figure, that would be a closer parallel…

]]> By: Matt Munro http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9261 Matt Munro Wed, 30 Apr 2008 12:33:15 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9261 "the BNPists believe English nationhood is based on white Anglo-Saxon-ness *and* celebrate St George without understanding he was foreign, which makes them ignorant and silly." Who is being ignorant and silly though, the left or the right ? He's a SYMBOLIC, not a literal figure, so his ethnicity is irrelevant, for want of a better word he's adopted by the "English"". Nationhood is socially constructed, so St George has whatever meaning you wish him to have, the fact that the BNPs is not historically accurate does not (or should not) affect how he is viewed by the general populance. Ideas about the symbol, not the symbol itself, determine it's social meaning. "St George" is just a label for the concept of "Englishness", he could just as easily be a 12th Century Ukranian wheel tapper and still symbolise England. By your logic Hitler wasn't German so Germans aren't to blame for him ?? “the BNPists believe English nationhood is based on white Anglo-Saxon-ness *and* celebrate St George without understanding he was foreign, which makes them ignorant and silly.”

Who is being ignorant and silly though, the left or the right ? He’s a SYMBOLIC, not a literal figure, so his ethnicity is irrelevant, for want of a better word he’s adopted by the “English”". Nationhood is socially constructed, so St George has whatever meaning you wish him to have, the fact that the BNPs is not historically accurate does not (or should not) affect how he is viewed by the general populance. Ideas about the symbol, not the symbol itself, determine it’s social meaning. “St George” is just a label for the concept of “Englishness”, he could just as easily be a 12th Century Ukranian wheel tapper and still symbolise England.
By your logic Hitler wasn’t German so Germans aren’t to blame for him ??

]]> By: john b http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9210 john b Tue, 29 Apr 2008 14:02:18 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9210 "the point about Saints is that they are a symbol of nationhood, how many countries can prove the exact lineage of their saints?" That's the whole sodding point - the BNPists believe English nationhood is based on white Anglo-Saxon-ness *and* celebrate St George without understanding he was foreign, which makes them ignorant and silly. Wheras Billy Bragg understands that English nationhood is based on cultural mongrelness *and* celebrates St George whilst understanding he was foreign, which makes him informed and sensible. “the point about Saints is that they are a symbol of nationhood, how many countries can prove the exact lineage of their saints?”

That’s the whole sodding point - the BNPists believe English nationhood is based on white Anglo-Saxon-ness *and* celebrate St George without understanding he was foreign, which makes them ignorant and silly.

Wheras Billy Bragg understands that English nationhood is based on cultural mongrelness *and* celebrates St George whilst understanding he was foreign, which makes him informed and sensible.

]]> By: Matt Munro http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9201 Matt Munro Tue, 29 Apr 2008 12:16:43 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9201 What on earth does it matter exactly what his blood line was anyway, the point about Saints is that they are a symbol of nationhood, how many countries can prove the exact lineage of their saints ? It really doesn't matter that he wasn't "English". What on earth does it matter exactly what his blood line was anyway, the point about Saints is that they are a symbol of nationhood, how many countries can prove the exact lineage of their saints ? It really doesn’t matter that he wasn’t “English”.

]]> By: Robert http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9171 Robert Mon, 28 Apr 2008 23:31:09 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9171 Why hasn't anyone quoted Billy Bragg yet? <em>"Now Britannia, she's Half English She speaks Latin at home, And St George was born in the Lebanon, How he got 'ere I don't know. And those three lions on yer shirt, They never sprung from England's dirt, Them lions are Half English, And I'm Half English too."</em> I'm surprised that there was such an English feeling down in Devon, Simon. Haven't those south-westerners got their <a href="http://www.devonflag.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">own flag</a>? Why hasn’t anyone quoted Billy Bragg yet?

“Now Britannia, she’s Half English
She speaks Latin at home,
And St George was born in the Lebanon,
How he got ‘ere I don’t know.
And those three lions on yer shirt,
They never sprung from England’s dirt,
Them lions are Half English,
And I’m Half English too.”

I’m surprised that there was such an English feeling down in Devon, Simon. Haven’t those south-westerners got their own flag?

]]> By: jeff http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9162 jeff Mon, 28 Apr 2008 19:12:37 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9162 Yeah, calling him 'turkish' is highly anachronistic Yeah, calling him ‘turkish’ is highly anachronistic

]]> By: Steve http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9148 Steve Mon, 28 Apr 2008 15:47:16 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9148 John B - King Arthur wasn't English. He is probably an amalgam of various Celtic warlords. There were no Turks in Anatolia in the reign of Diocletian. They wouldn't arrive for another 700 years or so. George, whoever he was, was probably Greek. John B - King Arthur wasn’t English. He is probably an amalgam of various Celtic warlords. There were no Turks in Anatolia in the reign of Diocletian. They wouldn’t arrive for another 700 years or so.

George, whoever he was, was probably Greek.

]]> By: Matt Munro http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9138 Matt Munro Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:38:32 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9138 I went to a St Georges day parade (my son is in the beavers), my first attendance at church in god knows how long. Traditional English hymns, union jacks and St George flags everywhere, and the national anthem at the end. On the way it out ot rained and we all got soaked. Went home and had rost beef and yorkshire pud. Marvellous. I went to a St Georges day parade (my son is in the beavers), my first attendance at church in god knows how long. Traditional English hymns, union jacks and St George flags everywhere, and the national anthem at the end. On the way it out ot rained and we all got soaked. Went home and had rost beef and yorkshire pud. Marvellous.

]]> By: Matt Munro http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9137 Matt Munro Mon, 28 Apr 2008 11:32:40 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9137 This article makes me want to vomit. This article makes me want to vomit.

]]> By: Jennie http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9122 Jennie Mon, 28 Apr 2008 00:40:56 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9122 Hurrah! I've been trolled! Hurrah! I’ve been trolled!

]]> By: john b http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9109 john b Sun, 27 Apr 2008 18:40:18 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9109 "Jenny-perhaps you could tell your self-righteous landlady that Turkey did not even EXIST in Europe until 1485, so there is no way St. George could have been Turkish." England didn't exist til 927AD. For your next trick, are you going to claim King Arthur wasn't English? I reckon your BNP mates wouldn't be happy about that one... “Jenny-perhaps you could tell your self-righteous landlady that Turkey did not even EXIST in Europe until 1485, so there is no way St. George could have been Turkish.”

England didn’t exist til 927AD. For your next trick, are you going to claim King Arthur wasn’t English? I reckon your BNP mates wouldn’t be happy about that one…

]]> By: phil http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9100 phil Sun, 27 Apr 2008 15:41:35 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9100 Jenny-perhaps you could tell your self-righteous landlady that Turkey did not even EXIST in Europe until 1485, so there is no way St. George could have been Turkish. Still- don't let the facts get in the way of a right-on rant! It seems many on the hard-of-thinking Left know little of history, and blithley assume that all countries have been where they are since the beginning of time (apart from England which is a 'nation of immigrants'). Not so. I suggest a trip to the library before judging the intellect of others. Incidentally, has anyone else noticed the way that a few years ago it was always the union flag that had been 'hijacked' by the BNP, whereas now it is claimed to be the St Georges cross? Why can't you even make your lies consistent? The truth is that neither were hijacked (how the hell do you hijack a flag for God's sake!) merely picked up out of the gutter where the likes of Simon and Jennie had thrown it. Wankers indeed. Jenny-perhaps you could tell your self-righteous landlady that Turkey did not even EXIST in Europe until 1485, so there is no way St. George could have been Turkish. Still- don’t let the facts get in the way of a right-on rant! It seems many on the hard-of-thinking Left know little of history, and blithley assume that all countries have been where they are since the beginning of time (apart from England which is a ‘nation of immigrants’). Not so. I suggest a trip to the library before judging the intellect of others.
Incidentally, has anyone else noticed the way that a few years ago it was always the union flag that had been ‘hijacked’ by the BNP, whereas now it is claimed to be the St Georges cross? Why can’t you even make your lies consistent? The truth is that neither were hijacked (how the hell do you hijack a flag for God’s sake!) merely picked up out of the gutter where the likes of Simon and Jennie had thrown it. Wankers indeed.

]]> By: Alan Paxton http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9081 Alan Paxton Sat, 26 Apr 2008 23:32:52 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9081 "St George is ripe for reclaiming in a host of visually, figuratively and politically creative ways. Not negatively, but positively. Not as part of an arcane debate abut ‘Englishness’, but as an embodiment of something different. Not in the name of narrow nationalism or imperial nostalgia, but of people seeking to celebrate the international and truly hospitable dimension of their inheritance." You know, this could just be worth a try. I can't say I feel much enthusiasm for George, but we don't get to choose our ethnicity and its associated history, so we just have to work with the material to hand and see what we can do with it. Multiculturalism celebrates the cultures of minority groups while saying to the majority, in effect, "You can't be allowed to celebrate your culture for fear of oppressing everyone else." The man in the pub was perhaps responding to this, though that in no way justifies racial abuse. It does bring out, though, the importance of articulating an Englishness that isn't thuggish, racist, crusading or nostalgic, attributes that all come to mind when I think of George as he is commonly portrayed in England. Separating him from these assocations isn't going to be easy. But the legend of the high-ranking servant of Empire who renounced armed persecution and in consequence became a nonviolent martyr (i.e. a witness to the truth) is a powerful one. It could be presented not as a reflection of what the English are actually like, but as an ideal towards which we should be working. What do non-Christians make of George? He is reportedly venerated as Al-Khader by many Palestinians, Muslim as well as Christian. “St George is ripe for reclaiming in a host of visually, figuratively and politically creative ways. Not negatively, but positively. Not as part of an arcane debate abut ‘Englishness’, but as an embodiment of something different. Not in the name of narrow nationalism or imperial nostalgia, but of people seeking to celebrate the international and truly hospitable dimension of their inheritance.”

You know, this could just be worth a try. I can’t say I feel much enthusiasm for George, but we don’t get to choose our ethnicity and its associated history, so we just have to work with the material to hand and see what we can do with it.

Multiculturalism celebrates the cultures of minority groups while saying to the majority, in effect, “You can’t be allowed to celebrate your culture for fear of oppressing everyone else.” The man in the pub was perhaps responding to this, though that in no way justifies racial abuse. It does bring out, though, the importance of articulating an Englishness that isn’t thuggish, racist, crusading or nostalgic, attributes that all come to mind when I think of George as he is commonly portrayed in England.

Separating him from these assocations isn’t going to be easy. But the legend of the high-ranking servant of Empire who renounced armed persecution and in consequence became a nonviolent martyr (i.e. a witness to the truth) is a powerful one. It could be presented not as a reflection of what the English are actually like, but as an ideal towards which we should be working.

What do non-Christians make of George? He is reportedly venerated as Al-Khader by many Palestinians, Muslim as well as Christian.

]]> By: Simon Barrow http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9079 Simon Barrow Sat, 26 Apr 2008 21:54:20 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9079 Cabalamat: (1) True (obviously). We're dealing with the history and adaptation of a myth. But it is one that has cultural and political application. (2) There are other traditions that have him coming from Central Asia. Cabalamat: (1) True (obviously). We’re dealing with the history and adaptation of a myth. But it is one that has cultural and political application. (2) There are other traditions that have him coming from Central Asia.

]]> By: Cabalamat http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9072 Cabalamat Sat, 26 Apr 2008 14:57:33 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9072 <i>he was most likely Turkish</i> There are two problems with this statement: 1. it's quite likely that St George was not a real person 2. the story has him living in Anatolia (i.e. modern Turkey). However, at the time there were no Turks in Anatolia (they were all in central Asia). So he couldn't have been of Turkish ethnicity. The main language spoken in Anatolia at the time (c. 300 AD) was probably Greek. he was most likely Turkish

There are two problems with this statement:

1. it’s quite likely that St George was not a real person

2. the story has him living in Anatolia (i.e. modern Turkey). However, at the time there were no Turks in Anatolia (they were all in central Asia). So he couldn’t have been of Turkish ethnicity. The main language spoken in Anatolia at the time (c. 300 AD) was probably Greek.

]]> By: Sunny Hundal http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9071 Sunny Hundal Sat, 26 Apr 2008 14:19:36 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9071 Having Littlejohn have a pop at you should be worn as a badge of honour. I would! I'd display it proudly on my blog. Having Littlejohn have a pop at you should be worn as a badge of honour. I would! I’d display it proudly on my blog.

]]> By: Larry Teabag http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9070 Larry Teabag Sat, 26 Apr 2008 14:15:37 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9070 <em>So what did you do for St George’s Day, then?</em> I went to the pub. And I vaguely wondered why it was so full of flags. Now I know - thanks. So what did you do for St George’s Day, then?

I went to the pub. And I vaguely wondered why it was so full of flags. Now I know - thanks.

]]> By: Jennie http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9062 Jennie Sat, 26 Apr 2008 11:01:47 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9062 Last Christmas the mummers came to our pub. One of the characters in the play was St George. Some idiot stood up and drunkenly shouted "YAY St. George! England!" and was delighted when St George killed the Arab character to the extent that he started ranting about the BNP and how we should do that to "all the pakis". My boss, the landlady of the pub, took him aside and explained to him that 1, St George was a Turk who lived in Palestine for most of his life 2, Arabs are not "pakis" and 3, if he said anything like that in her hearing again he would be barred from the pub I remain convinced that the best way for this shit to be dealt with is for people in a position of power to do something about it. You were possibly correct in not putting yourself at risk by confronting the racism in the pub you were in, but I'm saddened and disappointed that none of the staff or management confronted it, because that gave the racist wanker their tacit approval. Last Christmas the mummers came to our pub. One of the characters in the play was St George. Some idiot stood up and drunkenly shouted “YAY St. George! England!” and was delighted when St George killed the Arab character to the extent that he started ranting about the BNP and how we should do that to “all the pakis”.

My boss, the landlady of the pub, took him aside and explained to him that 1, St George was a Turk who lived in Palestine for most of his life 2, Arabs are not “pakis” and 3, if he said anything like that in her hearing again he would be barred from the pub

I remain convinced that the best way for this shit to be dealt with is for people in a position of power to do something about it. You were possibly correct in not putting yourself at risk by confronting the racism in the pub you were in, but I’m saddened and disappointed that none of the staff or management confronted it, because that gave the racist wanker their tacit approval.

]]> By: Peter http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9059 Peter Sat, 26 Apr 2008 09:52:28 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/26/england-and-st-george/#comment-9059 An interesting post. For starters my local council, Sandwell Council, could refrain from inviting fascists with terrorist connections, namely the British Ulster Alliance, to lead the St Georges Day parade. http://westbromblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/exclusive-neo-nazi-terrorist.html That would make a good start. An interesting post. For starters my local council, Sandwell Council, could refrain from inviting fascists with terrorist connections, namely the British Ulster Alliance, to lead the St Georges Day parade.
http://westbromblog.blogspot.com/2008/04/exclusive-neo-nazi-terrorist.html
That would make a good start.

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