The other day I asked readers of my blog how they felt about men who wear skirts and/or make-up.
I’m a man. I’ve worn skirts, dresses and make-up on occasion in the past. I imagine I’ll do so again at some point in the future, but I wouldn’t dare to wear a skirt out in public (or at least not outside certain ’safe’ public places) because I value my personal safety too much. Whilst I will concede that there was an element of deliberately doing so to be ‘different’, my choice was primarily based on the same simple reason I wear anything: because it was comfortable and I thought it looked good.
Although I was genuinely interested in what you thought specifically about men in skirts/make-up, there was a wider context to the question too. It was about men choosing to do things which have traditionally been considered the preserve of just women. Wearing skirts is just one very obvious external sign of that. I could have added in all sorts of other things too. I could have asked what you thought of men who choose to stay home raising children while the mother goes out to work. I could have asked what you think of men with long hair, but I suspect that’s more of an issue in this country than other places. Essentially, I was wondering why society (or at least progressive society) seems a lot more willing to accept and support women who seek to push into areas traditionally considered the preserve of men, but a lot less concerned about men seeking to push into areas considered the preserve of women.
It’s a given that feminism and the battle against sexism is about supporting and fighting for the rights of women to break into traditional male-only areas, that they shouldn’t be confined to the things traditionally designated just for women. Thus the idea that women can work as builders or can wear trousers or can drink a pint of bitter is not really questioned as much as it once was. That’s not to say that prejudice has disappeared, but intolerance has declined and will hopefully continue to decline. But this doesn’t have seem to cut back the other way. Nobody bats an eyelid if a woman turns up for work in the office wearing trousers, but no man could get away with turning up to his office job in a skirt. Societal norms saying what each gender should and shouldn’t do are largely illogical nonsense. Women have been agitating and organising to break down the barriers standing in their way for a long time, and have made a lot of progress. There doesn’t seem to have been a comparable push by men. The wearing of skirts is a very visible example of this.
Any reasonably enlightened or even logical person should be able to see that there is no good reason why women are ‘allowed’ to wear skirts and men aren’t. If you accept that a woman wearing trousers is perfectly normal and acceptable, then what possible objection could you raise to a man wearing a skirt? I think most people accept this argument, accept that people should be free to wear whatever they want, but they still feel the need to qualify this by saying “but I think it looks stupid/*I* wouldn’t do it/I find it unattractive when men do”. Reaction to a man wearing a skirt is different to our reaction to a woman wearing one. I’ve been wondering why that is and I can’t help but feel that it has something do with a residual attachment to illogical norms, despite our professed enlightenment. Women wanting to dress like men is acceptable and understandable, but men wanting to dress like women is perverse and nonsensical. It’s put forward best by Lauren O in this thread:
I think it’s perhaps more likely that it’s easier for society to accept women taking on men’s roles than it is for men to take on women’s roles because women are seen as inferior. A woman wanting to take on men’s roles seems less offensive, because, the reasoning goes, who wouldn’t want to be a member of the superior sex? A man wanting to take on women’s roles seems more offensive, because what man would ever want to degrade himself like that?
I think there’s something in this. I doubt it’s ever considered in such explicit terms by the people, but it seems to me this is the underlying reason for the expressions of reluctance. It’s even understood on at least some level by the angry young man who would almost certainly kick the crap out of me if I tried to walk through the town centre at night in a skirt. He’d do it because he’d find what I’m doing offensive, because it’s not what men should do. However enlightened we think we are, we still make nonsensical connections between gender and behaviours, and ‘girly’ behaviours are still looked down on as being only acceptable for girls, whereas ‘manly’ behaviours are seen as acceptable for all. I don’t want to accuse anybody in particular of this, but if your reaction to a man wearing a skirt is in any way more negative than your reaction to a woman wearing a skirt, ask yourself why. Is this inconsistency mirrored in your reactions to men wearing trousers and women wearing trousers?
I am happy to call myself a feminist, but a more accurate term would be gender egalitarian. I support the goals of equal pay for men and women, equal suffrage and, yes, the right for women to wear trousers without getting hassled. But I do so because it’s part of a wider philosophy for me - the idea of decoupling societal assumptions from one’s gender. I don’t want to move to some kind of androgynous, homogenous, unigender. What I would like is a society without expectations being placed around gender. The idea of “men’s clothing” and “women’s clothing” is just one part of that. There is simply clothing. Women can wear trousers or skirts; men can wear trousers or skirts and it shouldn’t matter a bit to anyone. This goes for the many other things which are traditionally thought of as being exclusively or predominately male or female. Manly men and girly girls and manly girls and girly men and all shades in between should be welcome. There should be no prejudice faced by any shade. There should be no ‘only if (I think) it looks good’ caveat.
So much for the ideal. I think most people are still attached to the norms associated with their gender. They have no desire to jettison them and they shouldn’t have to. But what they find comforting and reassuring, others find restrictive and suffocating. The feminist movement has done a wonderful job at taking the sledgehammer to one particular set of assumptions, but there is a wider battle here. It’s a battle to be fought by everyone. It’s why feminism is not just for women. Men are in a relatively privileged position, but are constrained by gender assumptions just as much as women were and are. Perhaps when men start challenging these norms, by wearing skirts for example, it will be a sign of that battle being won. And maybe one day men wearing skirts will be as unremarkable as women wearing trousers.
An arguably complicating feature here is the phenomenon of fetishistic transvestitism, a very common fantasy for men and one that is quite tied up with the feminine=demeaning ideology. While I am not one to judge people’s sexual fantasies on political grounds, that fact on the ground does make it more difficult for men to wear dresses in a way that doesn’t attract a form of social censure.
That and the fact that you can get beaten up too. That doesn’t help either.
This is hardly an adequate discussion.
You’ve neglected the entire history of how woman came to wear trousers. Such factors might well weigh on whether men start to wear skirts on not.
Additionally I think it’s perhaps more likely that it’s easier for society to accept women taking on men’s roles than it is for men to take on women’s roles because women are seen as inferior. strikes me as simplistic preaching to the converted. There are reputedly more male to female tranvestites and transexuals than female to male. Were the quote it suggests that all such people are basically masochistic. On the contrary they seem to me to become stronger not weaker.
So there’s STILL social censure of scots and the clergy?
My view is that were there any qualified and reputably trendy fashionistas designing modern male skirting styles and thereby formally supporting legless clothing for men as anything other than traditional or formal wear then this wouldn’t be in question.
It’s a supply-side issue which exists because of a lack of confidence in the potential of economic returns from the market - one sarong doesn’t make a season!
As someone said when you posted this on LJ: perhaps the reason men don’t wear skirts is that they are horrible impractical garments? I never get chafed thighs in trousers, and that’s without the whole running/climbing/etc. issue.
The question could just as easily be: “Why don’t women wear skirts?”
There has been a massive change since the 40s and 50s, when pretty well every woman wore a skirt, to the situation today where trousers, pants and jeans are the norm. But I suspect this has everything to do with practicality and very little to do with ‘taking on male roles’.
thank you for writing this - if i were a man i’d be pissed! you’re absolutely right, why is it that if a man wants to wear a skirt, he will be laughed at? ( and most women would ridicule him..) and i think that there is something absolutely in what you say - it appears to most people that women would want to do what men have done, but why would a man want to do what a woman does. i’m interested in getting away from gender stereotypes but it doesn’t seem too many people are interested in that. an individual should be able to do what he/she/’it’ wants, irrespective of what ‘group’ had a ‘monopoly’ on that activity in the past - why should he/she/’it’ not appropriate something for their own self - without any gender connotation? Practical or not - the skirt-wearing thing is a good case-study of social reaction to how deeply entrenched ideas about gender and gender roles are, and how wearing something ’signifies’ such a role.
Of course, the real issue is that it cuts to the core of where gender stereotypes come from in the first place - constructions of group identity - for ‘men’ and for ‘women’ - which are then given a label “masculine” - what is considered suitable’ desirable for the ‘men’ group - and “feminine” - what is considered desirable/suitable for the group ‘women’. these constructions are social constructions of course, and therefore likely to change over time, but are held very dear..and boy there is a lot of trouble if an individual wants to come along and appropriate any characteristic/behaviour one or other of the groups thinks its got a ‘monopoly’ on. of course people nowadays are more relaxed about ‘mix and match’ but there is still a huge buying -into the idea of something as ‘masculine’ or ‘feminine’ in itself. which of course is rubbish.
This is a special case of a general rule. There is less variation in male than female clothing styles in every sense.
Look at any formal occasion, and all the men will be dressed almost identically.
Clothing sends a signal, and it is all a question of what signal you intend to send.
There are reputedly more male to female tranvestites and transexuals than female to male.
TDK - I have heard that, do you know of any evidence/ something to link to?
Women wearing trousers are not wearing man’s clothes - they are women’s clothes that happen to be trousers. In much the same way, men who wear kilts are not wearing women’s clothes - they are wearing a skirt that has been designed for men. If a woman turned up for work wearing a man’s suit, she’d get much the same response as a man in a skirt. People use clothes to signify their identity, including their gender/sexual identity. The reason both men and women wear clothes that do not belong to their gender is because they don’t, for a variety of reasons, feel comfortable with the roles society has carved out for their genders. This is obviously how you feel. I wish you well with that but spare us the bullshit arguments please.
I don’t mind at all, as long as you all dress nicely when you’re out and about in your frocks.
It’s drag that really gets on my tits. Drag really IS demeaning to women. It’s a very stylised, male view of what women are - lipstick, big boobs, huge hair, and twittery halfwittery.
Sexist in the extreme.
lipstick, big boobs, huge hair, and twittery halfwittery.
Ah! You’ve met the wife, then?
Which wife, Mike? - I’m guessing the most recent one…?
Ha, ha! Touche! I walked right into that one didn’t I?
Actually she refers to herself as my LAST wife!
Kate has a good point.
Drag -as far as i can see - - is a fetishization of a gender stereotype. imho - a person feels they missed out on by virtue of physical birth - and perhaps therefore seems desperate to exaggerate and idealise, what they think the ‘other’ is all about. the grass is greener on the other side and all that sort of stuff. problem is though that it is still very much about keeping gender stereotypes alive - in fact - its all about seeing identity through existing stereotypes, and externalities. Or about tying in a person’s reality - with gender - in an inescapable way. it’s following group expectations - in a pronounced way - just because we’re not in the group we want to be! but ah well, if a person wants to do that, i can kind of understand - if you feel you reject one role, you might then think aha! the opposite of that must be the thing for me, perhaps you want to parody the role you have rejected, i don’t know. but its a shame we can’t get away from the demarcation of clothes and activities by “gender” - and “marking” what we are by what we wear, and fundamentally, this binary opposition of “masculine” and “feminine” which is so damn freudian!
It is interesting, the stereotyping that society finds acceptable. For example, we find blackface - which is a horrible exaggeration of a stereotype - absolutely unacceptable (and rightly so). Drag - although also an extremely unpleasant exaggeration of a stereotype - is considered entirely acceptable and even highly amusing - Lily Savage, Edna Everage, etc. Go figure.
Would it be very out of order to suggest this was partly because most men don’t waste their lives worrying about what to wear?
Is it so bad that men give relatively little thought to the superficial world of external appearance? Granted that makes it hard to market many varied clothes, face paint or silly contraptions like hair straighteners. But is that so bad?
Is it terrible that most of what men wear over a week is dictated not by what some kabal of magazine editors has declared “fashionable” that week?
Add to that that men tend to buy clothes as a chore - and so when buying jeans ignore the shirts section, the ties section, the shoes section, and presumably the skirt section of the shop - and a question arrises.
Is it not more alarming a fact that women still waste so much time, energy and money being told what to wear (all be it by fashion editors instead of their dad, priest, or husband) when this waste of human and natural resource serves nothing but superficial whim?
ps - i barely know a single man who has not at some stage dressed in drag for a drunken night out - it looks awful but it tends to be good fun.
Thanks all for the (mostly very polite) comments. I’ve been away from the internet over the weekend, so have only just seen these.
Personally, I find skirts more comfortable in some ways than trou, particularly in summer. The point I was trying to make, though, was about more than just skirts. Men doing things traditionally thought of as being womanly things suffer far more derision than women traditionally doing things traditionally thought of as manly things. I waish that was “bullshit”, but sadly it ain’t.
Interesting stuff, although I do think its a tad too easy to get caught up in questions of gender, drag and all things related to the exclusion of wider considerations of the kind of social pressures that exist, generally, and which push towards conformity to tightly defined norms.
A couple of a years back we took my son to his first rock festival (Download) and made a point of inviting my niece to come with us as well. She was fourteen at the time, had decided to go in for the Goth thing because that’s what she feels most comfortable with and was having a terrible time at school with both the teachers and with other kids because she pretty much the only female Goth in her year. As she’s always had a few self-esteem problems growing up this was hardly what she needed. She’s even started on a bit of mild self-harming (mainly scratching her arms) and her school was next to useless because they saw how she looked as part of the ‘problem’ rather than her simply expressing herself.
So, she had a five day break with us, away from all the hassles, amongst 80,000 people none of whom gave a toss what she wore or how she looked - and there were a fair few blokes wandering round in skirts and dresses as well with no pretensions of looking like they were in ‘drag’ - however you might want to define ‘drag’, a shaved head, pair of cherry reds and a light A-line summer dress aint the stuff of the ‘traditional’ drag queen, it’s just a bloke wearing a dress because he feels like it.
So for a few days she had no abuse, no smart-arse comments, no one staring at her, just a big crowd of people around her who accept each other for what they are, including a fair few who took to her just because she was young and thought she looked cute…
She’s come on leaps and bounds since then, just for having had the chance to spend a bit of time in a non-judgemental environment and see for herself that there are people who’ll accept for who she is… and best of all, the self-harming has stopped completely.
“women still waste so much time, energy and money being told what to wear”
I must have missed that part of the instruction manual. There was a book in Tesco’s the other day called “50 women who changed the world” and three of them were fashion designers. *I* put it back on the shelf in disgust, but other people won’t have…
Unity, in a further effort to contrast your massive posts, I’ll simply say this: well done ;)
Fair play Jennie - you did well to skip that chapter - I found out last week that dgh hair straighteners (or something similar) cost over £100 a piece. Thats enough cash for a night out at the theatre, football, opera, or pretty much anything else in London. I was stunned.
oh - and the question must be asked - who was left out of such a book to make way for fashion designers? After all - as Al Murray said - “Most of the hounds don’t know where the fox is - in fact most of the hounds don’t even know there is a fox. They’re just hapilly following arseholes… And that is all anyone needs to know about fashion.”
Well, it didn’t have any of the Garrett sisters in, or Ada Lovelace. But it did have Princess Di.
When I used to go to Leeds festival I would usually wear skirts/dresses. I never got any stick, except the one year Oasis played and the site was swarming with their fans. Festivals are just a great open-minded, friendly place to be. It’s always depressing to return to the real world and all its pettiness after a weekend away at a festival.
ah - the people’s princess…
Interesting choice in Ada Lovelace though - given how we are communicating right now.
There was a documentary about her on radio four recently, that’s why she sprang to mind…
Yet more evidence I should listen to the radio more…
There was a book in Tesco’s the other day called “50 women who changed the world” and three of them were fashion designers.
I suppose it is all a question of what changes to the world the readers are interested in…
Well, if one of the fashion designers mentioned had succeeded in making skirts acceptable wear for men then I suspect we wouldn’t be having this discussion…
It’s actually seen as “sexy” and “comfy” for women to wear men’s clothes. While I was growing up my girlfriends would ask to wear my clothes all the time, in public even. I’d have been in serious physical danger had I attempted to do the same thing.
I do think there’s something to this argument - that it’s demeaning for men to want to present “feminine”, but empowering for women to do the same. Girl in guy’s boxers = sexy/comfy, guy in sweater dress = pervert.
In many ways it feels like we’re still living in the 1800’s. Men’s liberation just hasn’t yet happened, and we’re a ways away from gender equality.
For what it’s worth, I’m a happily married liberated man (crossdresser if you must). I only dress at home of course for my own safety, and not for “sex”. (I am heterosexual - not bi or gay btw). While I’d agree that skirts can be uncomfortable, I have a few sweater dresses I really wish I could wear out because they are so superior in terms of comfort to pants and a shirt.
One day, I hope the world will wake up and realize that women don’t make themselves beautiful for the benefit of men. When you finally realize that, it allows you to allow for the possibility that a man may want to be pretty too - and not for the benefit of men, but maybe for his own benefit and/or that of his accepting and open-minded wife. I’m the luckiest man in the world, and my wife and I share in both the “masculine” and “feminine” sides of each other - together.
YES. IF MEN LIKE TO WEAR A WOMEN’S DESS WHY NOT. IT IS ALL PERSONAL LIKINGS. THERE IS NO DIVIDE AND RULE POLICY THAT SKIRTS ARE TOBE WORN BY WOMEN ONLY. IF WOMEN WANT THEM NOT TOB DOMINATED BY MASCULINE CULPRITS AND HUSBAND DACOITS THEY SHOULD MAKE EVERY HUSBAND A SHE-MALE AND KEEP THEM ALWAYS DRESSED IN SKIRTS OR KEEP THEM NAKED CHAINED LIKE DOGS
MY DEAR WOMEN FOLKS: DONOT LET YOUR HUSBANDS DOMINATE YOU;REALIZE YOUR POWER AND STRENGTH;KEEP YOUR HUSBANDS LIKE DOGS ;CHAIN THEM NAKED AT HOME AND WHEN GOING OUT TAKE THEM WITH YOU DRESSED IN MAID UNIFORM;
SEE YOUR MEN WORE BRAS ALSAYS; NEVER KEEP THE WITH BARE TOPS; ALWYS WEAR IN THEM BRAS
Tis is all so silly. For those who say a woman can wear a mens suit and go to work and receive the same negative attention as a man wearing a dress, high heels stockings and makeup is full of it. Get real. Women are free to express themselves in any manner they see fit without any negative repercussions, period. They can wear plain cotton boring underwear or sexy silky underwear. They can wear a skirt and blouse that is basic, jeans and a tee shirt, or a silky flowing sheer chiffon dress and be accepted in any of these outfits. They can cry if they are sad or hurt men cannot. It is so easy to say oh yea they can or oh no they can’t but in the REAL world were I live, women have complete freedom of choice in all they do. True if a woman becomes the CEO of a large company there will be some that may call her a “B”, but she is still free to pursue it.
Men have limitations on their lives from birth and those are usually put there by their mothers. My little boy won’t cry, he’s a man, don’t be a wimp, oh boys don’t play with that, boys don’t wear that. Come ON.
Men do not wear womens dresses simply because in the past most female clothing was made to attract males. Not so much today but the damage s done. Lingerie has only recently being made of cotton. No self respecting female would wear cotton panties when I was a girl and I still think they are gross. Slips were sexy and silky and lacy. Dress were silk and polyester, soft and flowing. And all women wore stockings or pantyhose. And sorry girls but those of you who do not wear stockings, your legs do not look good.
So men would not wear things that were to attract other men. As well lingerie being silky would or could have a sexual impact on a male in that their sexual arousal comes from sensation on the outside and womens lingerie is very sensual and soft and slippery.
talking about cross dressing, I’ve yet to see a woman wear a mens clothes convincingly - trouser suit it may be, but the cut is not the same.
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