Comments on: Let’s get engaged, Gordon http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/ If there wasn't one before, it's time we started it... Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:13:38 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: Chicken Yoghurt » Blog Archive » Tech support http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-5386 Chicken Yoghurt » Blog Archive » Tech support Mon, 18 Feb 2008 17:22:36 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-5386 [...] could be given to at least give the visitor a little more confidence. At the minute, as I said in a piece for Liberal Conspiracy a little while back, the casual browser is very likely being put off at the outset and the serious [...] [...] could be given to at least give the visitor a little more confidence. At the minute, as I said in a piece for Liberal Conspiracy a little while back, the casual browser is very likely being put off at the outset and the serious [...]

]]> By: links for 2007-11-15 « Spartakan http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-825 links for 2007-11-15 « Spartakan Thu, 15 Nov 2007 04:23:23 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-825 [...] Liberal Conspiracy » Let’s get engaged, Gordon Practical experiences of attempting to engage with one of the UK government’s consultations. (tags: uk government participation edemocracy 2007 article) [...] [...] Liberal Conspiracy » Let’s get engaged, Gordon Practical experiences of attempting to engage with one of the UK government’s consultations. (tags: uk government participation edemocracy 2007 article) [...]

]]> By: left of centre ground http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-618 left of centre ground Sun, 11 Nov 2007 18:14:26 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-618 Innocent Abroad raises a good point that it's alot easier to throw rocks at government but it's alot harder to rebuild it from the inside. Innocent Abroad raises a good point that it’s alot easier to throw rocks at government but it’s alot harder to rebuild it from the inside.

]]> By: stinkly http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-613 stinkly Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:48:21 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-613 "I believe government is a necessary evil so long as humanity consists, in Kant’s justly famous words, of “twisted timber”. This is to suggest that governments themselves consist of something other than twisted timber. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! “I believe government is a necessary evil so long as humanity consists, in Kant’s justly famous words, of “twisted timber”.

This is to suggest that governments themselves consist of something
other than twisted timber. !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

]]> By: Innocent Abroad http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-605 Innocent Abroad Sun, 11 Nov 2007 11:51:38 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-605 Well, imagine you're a government minister - or a Council leader, or the Chairman of a Health Trust - what do you want? Remember, that in order to have got to your present eminence you have long ago realised that any idea of "public service" is for the birds. Also, you have ambitions to go higher. Your interest is therefore to use public consultation in such a way that it will demonstrate not only that people are gagging for whatever it is you wanted to do in the first place, and to use the public money at your disposal to do just that. You therefore need, and instruct your staff to provide, consultation systems that not only achieve this but hopefully also demonstrate that you are better at delivering this outcome than your peer group. It's not really about the internet - MPs have long had strategies for discounting their constituents' views as revealed in letters received, and we would all think less of any MP who changed their mind on an issue of principle on the back of the contents of their mailbag. The only time government says it has not taken a view on an issue is when it believes that the downside of every course of action is greater than the upside - "green taxes" come to mind. And of course consultation on any proposal is likely to attract a disproportionate response from those who are against it, whether on self-interested or high-minded grounds. Consultation sounds good till you think it through. Budget-setting by referendum in California wasn't exactly a roaring success and 20-odd years ago Southwark Council undertook a genuine consultation exercise in order to re-write its Borough Plan it was quashed by the Government Inspector who damned it as "inward-looking and backward-looking" - i.e. the working people of Southwark wanted to preserve the existing economic and social relationships in their area in aspic. Why wouldn't they? Of course government consultation is a sham. Show me a government anywhere, from any historical period, where this wasn't true. It's part of the nature of government. Articles like this do the site no favours, I'm afraid - it's easy to be "oppositionist" but that's not, I take it, why you guys went to the trouble and expense of creating the site. I'm not an anarchist, I believe government is a <i>necessary</i> evil so long as humanity consists, in Kant's justly famous words, of "twisted timber". To govern is to engage in a dirty business unfit for tender consciences. Well, imagine you’re a government minister - or a Council leader, or the Chairman of a Health Trust - what do you want?

Remember, that in order to have got to your present eminence you have long ago realised that any idea of “public service” is for the birds.
Also, you have ambitions to go higher.

Your interest is therefore to use public consultation in such a way that it will demonstrate not only that people are gagging for whatever it is you wanted to do in the first place, and to use the public money at your disposal to do just that. You therefore need, and instruct your staff to provide, consultation systems that not only achieve this but hopefully also demonstrate that you are better at delivering this outcome than your peer group.

It’s not really about the internet - MPs have long had strategies for discounting their constituents’ views as revealed in letters received, and we would all think less of any MP who changed their mind on an issue of principle on the back of the contents of their mailbag.

The only time government says it has not taken a view on an issue is when it believes that the downside of every course of action is greater than the upside - “green taxes” come to mind. And of course consultation on any proposal is likely to attract a disproportionate response from those who are against it, whether on self-interested or high-minded grounds.

Consultation sounds good till you think it through. Budget-setting by referendum in California wasn’t exactly a roaring success and 20-odd years ago Southwark Council undertook a genuine consultation exercise in order to re-write its Borough Plan it was quashed by the Government Inspector who damned it as “inward-looking and backward-looking” - i.e. the working people of Southwark wanted to preserve the existing economic and social relationships in their area in aspic. Why wouldn’t they?

Of course government consultation is a sham. Show me a government anywhere, from any historical period, where this wasn’t true. It’s part of the nature of government. Articles like this do the site no favours, I’m afraid - it’s easy to be “oppositionist” but that’s not, I take it, why you guys went to the trouble and expense of creating the site. I’m not an anarchist, I believe government is a necessary evil so long as humanity consists, in Kant’s justly famous words, of “twisted timber”. To govern is to engage in a dirty business unfit for tender consciences.

]]> By: Rob Knight http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-603 Rob Knight Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:13:10 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-603 As a fully paid-up cynic, I have no problem in believing that the government doesn't really want to give people the means to 'engage' in the political process in any meaningful way. There's just no incentive for them to do it. It's not like this is particularly difficult - <a href="http://www.mysociety.org/" rel="nofollow">MySociety</a> have done excellent work in opening up government with a tiny fraction of the budget that the government itself must be spending on maintaining its plethora of websites. The story of <a href="http://www.directionlessgov.com/about.html" rel="nofollow">DirectionlessGov</a> provides an amusing lesson here. If a handful of reasonably smart techies can create better tools for accessing government information than the government itself can, I don't think it's unreasonable to conclude that the government <em>simply isn't trying</em>. As a fully paid-up cynic, I have no problem in believing that the government doesn’t really want to give people the means to ‘engage’ in the political process in any meaningful way. There’s just no incentive for them to do it.

It’s not like this is particularly difficult - MySociety have done excellent work in opening up government with a tiny fraction of the budget that the government itself must be spending on maintaining its plethora of websites. The story of DirectionlessGov provides an amusing lesson here. If a handful of reasonably smart techies can create better tools for accessing government information than the government itself can, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to conclude that the government simply isn’t trying.

]]> By: Chris Keating http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-602 Chris Keating Sun, 11 Nov 2007 10:13:05 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-602 If it's going to happen it has, as you say, to be done in a way which means it doesn't just become government propaganda. The government has quite enough resources with which to push their own message. Look, for instance, at the Passport Service website: big advert at the top which is selling identity cards. I don't know whether it's plausible to have an 'independent' body doing the selling - how would you make sure it was independent? If it’s going to happen it has, as you say, to be done in a way which means it doesn’t just become government propaganda. The government has quite enough resources with which to push their own message. Look, for instance, at the Passport Service website: big advert at the top which is selling identity cards.

I don’t know whether it’s plausible to have an ‘independent’ body doing the selling - how would you make sure it was independent?

]]> By: left of centre ground http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-596 left of centre ground Sat, 10 Nov 2007 23:38:29 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-596 If we have an issue we want to press then let's use this site to put pressure on the government to pass a bill on it or postpone bills. We've seen the effect that the right -wing media has had on pushing the inheritance tax issue. Why can't we do that with liberal issues? Suggest an issue and we can press the government on it by putting our arguement to people. If we put the arguement to Businesses, working classes, middle classes, scientists or experts, you name it. We can argue how it will be beneficial to them and create some momentum on some liberal issues. NOW NAME THE ISSUE!!!! If we have an issue we want to press then let’s use this site to put pressure on the government to pass a bill on it or postpone bills.
We’ve seen the effect that the right -wing media has had on pushing the inheritance tax issue. Why can’t we do that with liberal issues? Suggest an issue and we can press the government on it by putting our arguement to people. If we put the arguement to Businesses, working classes, middle classes, scientists or experts, you name it. We can argue how it will be beneficial to them and create some momentum on some liberal issues.

NOW NAME THE ISSUE!!!!

]]> By: Dan | thesamovar http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-594 Dan | thesamovar Sat, 10 Nov 2007 22:36:51 +0000 http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2007/11/10/lets-get-engaged-gordon/#comment-594 In the past I've occasionally responded to government 'consultations' on this or that. Despite taking considerable time to write thoroughly thought out responses that were reasonably short and to the point, I never heard anything back from them - not even an automated email to say they'd received what I sent them. After the infamous ID card consultation where all the dissenting voices were counted as one to make the figures stack up in favour of the governments plan, I no longer feel it's worth while responding to them. In the past I’ve occasionally responded to government ‘consultations’ on this or that. Despite taking considerable time to write thoroughly thought out responses that were reasonably short and to the point, I never heard anything back from them - not even an automated email to say they’d received what I sent them. After the infamous ID card consultation where all the dissenting voices were counted as one to make the figures stack up in favour of the governments plan, I no longer feel it’s worth while responding to them.

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